you might want to look at 748 and 853 HP and torque curves....12k gets you nothing except for flaking rockers and early bearing death.

 

where do I find torque curves for 748 base and 853 kit? Also 12k is the only way to run a 748 on the track, anything less is just slow! So far my 748 has apx 5,000 track miles ridden like that, with no (knock on wood) issues, how is that for italian workmanship!

 

Ask and you shall receive:
http://www.sigmaperformance.com/748-853.html

There is more proof that the 853 is a bike that Ducati should have built. Talk to Ducshop, BCM or Fox and they will all praise the 853. Come next month you can ride mine and be a judge for yourself.

 

WOW the California crowd is up awfully late tonight! LOL

I had a built 748/853 and it still died due to over-reving and other then head component failure.

From what I've been recently told, keeping it under 11,500 redline is a smart idea. Anything over that can cause significant, pre-mature rocker failure. I use to shift at 11,500 on my motor and never had a flaking rocker either.

In terms of power, the sigma performance link above is a wise start. I can't say enough about those guys and have learned quite a lot from there web site.

I can say, from experience, the 748/853 isn't anything compared to my new 748R motor. The 853 was very tame, similar to the stock 748 motor, with just MORE top end. I'd say the 853 I had was at least 10hp over a stock 748. Plus I had termi's and a lighter flywheel, which do help a bit. The R motor is a little devil though. You can easily do 3rd gear wheelies (if I knew how too) it pulls until 11,000rpm (lower then the 853) and feels like its got much more potential. I do say, its a tiny bit slower in the HP range then my 853 was... it seems to stop pulling at around 140mph, where the 853 kept going.

Now an 748R/853 with HC pistons and all the goodies that already come packaged in the R motor, thats next on my agenda. I'm gonna dyno my current R motor stock and then do the 853 upgrade very soon. The goal here, is to discover for myself the differences between the 748 and 853 bore kit, with proper maps. I've been told with a mix of R cam's and stock strada cam's, R heads and rods, 853 HC kit, software and oxygenated race fuel, you can get it up to around 115rwhp... not bad...

 

WOW the California crowd is up awfully late tonight! LOL

You don't say...

 

I had Ferracci rebuild my 99 748 with an 855 kit. Along with the cylinder kit they did oversize valves, ported the heads and stage 1 cams. The total increase was 16.8 HP. Attached are the before and after dyno charts.

 

Wouldn't it be more reliable and cheaper to get a 996 motor?

 

The 853 is a great option for the 748 and give the motor the potential it deserves. You can build one very reliably. The reason it feels flat on revs is due to the flatter torque curve, which makes the bike feel lazy on revving up, especially with stock valves and cams.

As far as rev limits, it does have the ability to rev just as high as the stock capacity, in fact it's slightly lighter then the stock setup. Since you usually change the rods when doing the new BBkit and rebalancing everything, a lighter crank is a logical step. I can't assume that bearings blowing out is due to the BBkit, especially since a properly tuned kit WILL NOT rev as high, slimply because it doesn't have to(they tend to go flat after 10500rpm's) as they are usually tuned to a lower peak TQ. The rods causing the damage is probably a result of stock rods living in the 11K rev range all the time. They are simply not built for that. Buy some Carillo or Falicon rods if you want to play on that level.

The big thing about the kit is the unshrouding of the valves which allow them to flow better. Going to bigger valves and cams is also a natural upgrade for the kit. With the larger valve pockets and stock valves, so you are kind of doing something for nothing, and your bike will be mad at you until you get bigger valves. Your bike CR will increase slighty due to the capacity and due to the piston dome shape. You will probably have to reshape the chamber(unless it's an R), so get the bigger valves.

I have a friend selling an 853R motor with injectors and exhaust(IIRC) for about $5000. Before you shudder, it dynoed at 121hp.

Take a look at Brad Black and Doug Lofgren's sites as they are truly masters of their game.

OH, if I hear that these motors are not reliable one more time, I'm gonna scream!!!!!!!!!! They are just as relaible as any other motor IF BUILT CORRECTLY!!! You will not destroy your rockers by adding a BBkit. You will destroy your rockers by NOT adjusting your valves properly! Put in some MBP collets and don't worry about valve adjustments for 15000 miles. I will put a "googly moogly hex" on the next guy that says these motors are not reliable.

 

I have a friend selling an 853R motor with injectors and exhaust(IIRC) for about $5000. Before you shudder, it dynoed at 121hp.

OUCH, EEK, PAIN IN THE SIDE... LOL

So thats the number to beat huh... hmm... I'll start workin on it!

 

Great thread. Makes me wonder what I can do to my 916 motor to bump HP...

 

Great info, thanks! It would be very cool to get 110Hp out of my bike, that is awesome. Basically I am somewhat surprised I have not blown up (or wrecked) my current stock engine as of yet. It has been run at redline for years now with about 6-10 track days a year. I think its safe to say a well cared for stock 748 engine can be bullitt proof. If I can do a 853 kit and run it hard I should really be able to knock down my lap times!
What about costs?
Do I need to do rods?
The BCM kit has new cylinders, where the Ducshop kit does not have them, is the BCM kit better?
I am by no means a engine guru, so its all new territory to me.

 

Regarding the revs, originally the 748 has an analog revcounter which means it's showing what it's told to show through calibration. Mine is off 400 revs to the safe side for example. You might have even more safe margin on yours, or just a good engine.

If you're going to rebuild it you'll like to dyno before anyway and then you can find out the difference between your revcounter and actual rpm.

 

Regarding the revs, originally the 748 has an analog revcounter which means it's showing what it's told to show through calibration. Mine is off 400 revs to the safe side for example. You might have even more safe margin on yours, or just a good engine.

If you've gotta look at the tachometer to find out where your power stops, you've got bigger issues. On my 748R, the power is over around 11k, thats it, no more power, shift! I usually shift the moment the power is gone, or if I'm not paying attention, when I'm going to fast or hit the rev limiter. So if the tach says 12k and it really means 11,500, that doesn't make any difference.

From my experience, there ain't much above 11k on the smaller bore bikes.

 

If you have been running your 748 at 12k, no matter what you do, open your bottom end, as you are apt to find some bearings on their way out, as I've seen it with one of my 748 motors that I was foolish enough to spin to that level, not to mention wasting a bunch of stock rockers.

Also a 02 748 with slip-ons and a chip probably makes around 78-82 real rear wheel HP. You can expect around 99-108 with just a 853 bore kit and no head work.

I've done 853 and 890 motors and they're great engines.

cheers
M

 

At 12k your 748 is making far less power than 10k. Listen to these guys. They know their Ducs.

 

How is 12k rpm making "far less" power than 10K? All I know is to pass 600/1000 jap bikes you need to "flog" the 748 at the track. Short shifting at 10k does not seem to make sense to me.
But back to the point, is my $1,500 or so spent on a 853 kit worth it? Most of you seem to think so which is great feedback, thanks.
I already have so much money into my 748, and its really setup very well, its just slow...
I have also been thinking of just getting a 848, which has great power. However the 14grand price plus sharkskinz and suspension work would mean I would need to part out my 748 to pay for it. And I just cannot bring myself to sell my first ever Ducati. If I was smart I would just buy a used 600RR, lucky for me I am NOT! LOL

 

So much for the Christmas Spirit

 

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, I did not mean to start a BB kit war, sorry for that!
Yes I am looking for more power coming out of the corners and down the straights, the 748 can smoke anyone in the turns as long as you are keen on braking less and just putting it in!
Perhaps I should just keep wailing on my 748 and save up for a 848...still not so sure what to do. I know I have been very lucky with this bike and the last thing I want to do is blow it up. I have till apx Feb until the next track day, so plenty of time to either get rich or install a BB kit. Either way I will being the valves inspected very soon since I am sure they have taken a beating.

 

Enjoy the Ride Duc_748

We all enjoy our 748/916/996/998's. I' ride my 996sps at the track, and a little on the street.

And totally enjoy my ride, but a good track motor will cost around $5-10k. I know as my last engine cost around $9k, and that is what it costs to get a REAL rear wheel 140hp out of 996 that will last.

If you believe that a 748 is all you will ever need at the track as far as handling, then have a decent engine built over the winter. And enjoy.

Or spend around $7-8k for a used dedicated Jap track bike and never worry about all the details of running a delicate Duc around the track.

Cheers
M

 

a good track motor will cost around $5-10k. I know as my last engine cost around $9k, and that is what it costs to get a REAL rear wheel 140hp out of 996 that will last.

IDK, I think 5k is too much to spend on upgrading a motor. Maybe buying a motor out-rite thats already built, sure... 5k is worth it, especially on a 748 series motor, where the higher revs can cause issues where re-building includes replacement rockers, MBP collets, and bottom end lightened/B&B'd. Its probably cheaper to upgrade your motor to a testastretta then spend 9k on building up a desmoquattro motor! Sure 140rwhp is dam good for a motor that isn't burning through rockers every 400 miles! lol

Yes I am looking for more power coming out of the corners and down the straights, the 748 can smoke anyone in the turns as long as you are keen on braking less and just putting it in!

Do what I did... buy a used 748R motor, there is a good one for sale right now in the classified section from a VERY reputable seller. Its literally a drop-in replacement (748 TB's and computer), though you will need a PC3 and a fully dyno tune. Once I've tuned mine, I'd be more then happy to send you my map. I had an 853 previously to the R and I tell ya, the R's power curve is built for the track. Then, all you've gotta do is toss in a BB kit and your done! I spent a grand on the motor and I'll spend another two grand (after labor) on the BB kit and a software tune. So for 3k I've got a perfectly good 748R with 853 Hi-Con kit from the duc shop. The BB kit is a simple install (after you find squish) and I'm sure somebody near you would do it for cheap...

BTW, please show me a 748 that revs to 13K and I'll show you a pile of aluminum and steel for the scrap yard.

I've got one in my garage... I'll sell it for cheap! LOL

 

I went through all of these gyrations. I bought a 996 motor. 120rwhp for around $1k. Bigger used stock(ish) motors are the cheapest way to make your bike faster. A 916 can get to 110, a 996 to 120-ish with stock exhaust(slip-ons), stock cams, and an off-the-shelf chip. No porting magic or titanium valves in sight. Bolt it up and ride.

 

Tis true, the best BigBore kit is a 996.

 

I got 16 HP with no head work. I had the DucShop balance and blueprint mine at the same time.

It has stock cams, heads, valves, and throttle bodies. It had a 50mm full system in both dyno runs. The 853 ran a Doug Lofgren chip from UltiMAP and the 748 ran a DP chip made for the exhaust. 996 T-bodies MAY add a little top end. The DucShop kits use new, stock 916 cylinders.

Were it not for the rev limiter at an indicated 11k, it would still be pulling. The power peak looks to be 10,250, but it is not falling much until the rev limit puts a kink in the curve.

 

You are right Colt, the addition of the bigger TB's and "full" system do help considerably, rather assist the BBkit do it's thing. It always is a symetry of parts that make it work. You made a simple(on paper) mod and made it work to it's potential with the addition of very nice parts.

Very nice power/TQ curve.

 

Colt, wow that is great info, sounds like your bike is very fun to ride. Did you feel the blueprinting helped the bike overall? And what exactly is blueprinting?
I just emailed Ducshop about their kit, online it does not list the cylinders. You said they gave you new cylinders? If you dont mind how much did the 853 cost you from Ducshop? Seems like most places give you new cylinders in exchange for your old ones, what is different about the new cylinders they give you, bored out? I am sorry if I am a engine idiot, but I have never had the chance to crack open a motor and figure it out. Thanks!

 

Duc_748,

If my wife found out what I paid, I'd never hear the end of it! My price is misleading because of all the stuff I had done, including the 18k service and I had Mark and Lorin do the work. Since you are buying a kit to install yourself, the price will be much different. Mark will be glad to discuss it with you.

The balancing and blueprinting mostly makes it last longer by setting the clearances (or at least checking to see that they are) to ideal. It frees up some of the bearings and reduces friction, maybe adding a horsepower, 2 at best. Balancing controls vibration and thus bearing loads and since the pistons in mine were lighter than stock, Mark thought it should be done; they must have been a lot lighter. They also reshimmed the tranny. I did not ask, but they should have tweaked the oil pump, key to reliability. My cams were re-degreed (2 or 3 HP and fantastic precision and "feel" to the engine). The valves were lapped and some of the seats were replaced; tight sealing maximizes power. Mark cut down my flywheel, you should put an aluminum flywheel in (it's easier for the average mechanic than turning down the stocker). The rings Mark uses are a bit softer than stock and seat very quickly and with the bearing clearances set to his specs, break-in is quick and easy.

You know, the more I write, the more it sounds like I have the track engine you should have. I would also look into having the engine with the UltiMAP chip mapped on a Dyno and send the chip and results to Doug Lofgren to have the chip remapped specific to your engine and the rev limiter raised to 11,500. The engine needs some over-rev capacity on top, as mine feels like 11,000 is the best shift point from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3. Sometimes, you want to let it rev a few heartbeats before you back-off for a corner and not shift.