I think you might be a little mixed up? A Mito has 0% Ducati parts in it, though might take its styling ques from the Desmoquattro.

Cagivas like Elephants, Canyons etc are just Cagivas with a Ducati engine... but they were badged and built by Cagiva.

Its like the company 'Condor' using a Ducati 350 engine in its military bike, yes its a Ducati engine, but that doesent make it a Ducati. The bike is still a Condor.

I know i'm rambling abit, but I hope that helps a little, or at least fuels some further discussion.

MF

 

Just to clear things up, If you read my first post (and incedentally the first reply in the thread) I was positive and polite, and just said you may be a little bixed up. I didnt start the hostility. We have all given you an answer to your question, and if you dont like it, thats not our problem.

Hope to see you around Canberra, should make for an interesting catch up

Best wishes, and dont burn all your bridges.

Regards

MF

 

Although my 916 has many parts that carry the Cagiva Elephant logo...

Maybe it shares parts with the Mito? - perhaps the rear brake and the alternator - as neither is really up to the job on a big bike....

 

Mike,
i am never mixed up and it is silly of you to say so.
I have ridden or owned or worked on practically every Ducati model made.
Bike of choice for me.
Cagiva and Ducati were inter-twined to say the least, history records this well enough
Paris-Dakar wins were a victory for Ducati as well, GP bike .............
Or was the 916 just a copy of the GP500 and the Mito, depends on your view?

Maybe you have never seen a MIto?
It's styling is pure 916 and in fact there is some debate at which bike Ducati-Cagiva released first. I will post the story of their design later.
Mito has in fact many parts lifted straight off the 916 and other Ducati.
This doesn't make it a Ducati in itself , but you are quick to discount the involvement of Cagiva and the fact the same designer did both the 916 and the Mito at the one time.

916 is pure Ducati in how it rides and you would find a Mito has the same hard edge sporty manners. Delicate ,yet pin-sharp steering and handling which is deliberatly designed into the bike, same designer.
Ducati make a few bikes currently which have a more user friendly manner but don't have that manner which marks the great Ducati bikes in history.
750 Sport roundcase, Pantah, 851, TT750, 916 and some others all have this edgy
highly strung manner that appeals to the traditional Ducati freak and a few new-comers.
I feel this was the original design brief that set Ducati apart from other bikes.
Dr T battled the factory to preserve the idea and it was carried on well Tambourini.

Seems odd that when the tank, seat fairing are identical but just scaled downslightly and so many parts are shared that it doesn't raise the question of why they made a mini 916?
I realise it does not have a Ducati badge, but feel Ducati could have easily put it under their range.
My guess was that it was being cautious of introducing a small two-stroke into their range?
Previous disasters with two-strokes and poor acceptance?

I posted the idea to create some discussion on the unique Ducati design brief and not to say Ducati or bikes that share the same wheels or forks are in fact a Ducati.
It is more about what makes the best Ducati and what puts Ducati apart from other bikes.


Captain Fuego.

 

I think the Ducati-Cagiva argument depends on the bike. I would consider the Cagiva Alazzura pretty close to a Duke as it is mostly a restyled Pantah. The Elefant is one step removed as it was mostly a Cagiva product with a Ducati motor, just as the DB series Bimotas are not really considered Ducatis. The Mito is pure Cagiva with no Ducati mechanical heritage and is a far cry from anything Ducati was interested in producing in the last 40 years or so.

In the end the debate is probably endless and in many ways pointless. Whatever bike you have, just enjoy it.

Bruce

 

BINGO! Passinglan has hit it on the head.

The initial question if you re-read it did not ask, is the Mito a Ducati because its is a miniturised desmoquattro, it said verbatim "Mito for one has to be a Ducati as it is not related to anything else". Well NO, its not a Ducati. Thats why its a Cagiva.....

I dont want to argue as there is no point. I have worked on many many bikes including Mitos, and know that really they are not the same in anyway, The mirrors look the same, but try get one to fit... no it doesent, and its the same for many other parts. It would be like saying a Laverda SFC is a Ducati becasue it shares the same brakes as some square cases.

Cagiva owned Ducati, yes. But who built the Cagiva Mito???? Answer CZ motorcycles in the Czech Republic, and it was one of the reasons why CZ went broke, as Cagiva did not pay up.

Maybe rephrase the question to what makes a Ducati (Even though we have already had this thread). I too, have ridden owned or worked on practically every Ducati model built.

MF

 

The mito is cagiva but the 916 is cagiva aswell.
Cagiva owned ducati from '85 to '96.
So in a way the 916 was a cagiva badged as a ducati

 

Mike ,
you say you don't want to argue yet you make a couple of points then say lets end it.
thinking then you have settled the matter.
Read again what i said . To say the arguement is as a SFC to Ducati is silly as this is not what i said.
Surely the creator of the bike comes into the matter?
I quote,
'Massimo Tambourini's design team at the Cagiva Research Centre at Varese had expended much effort on the intake and the exhaust system. Except for the engineassembly, much of the 916 development had been carried outat Varese,not Bolonge; thus indicating the close working relationship between the Cagiva and Ducati plants within the group."

Both bike were developed simulaneously it is said by the same design team. The Mito was completed first but not publicly shown as not to spoil the entry of the 916.
Even if the 916 was made in the CZ plant, which it wasn't, it would still be a Ducati.
This is not a factor.

Again i say Ducati could have easily put their badge on the bike.
The had previously created the Regolarita 125 series but this was no success, but a good engine perhaps. This at least had the Ducati logo on the cases.


To build and create a minature 916 for the market and not to put the Ducati badge on it raises some questions surely?

Captain Fuego

 

From Wikipedia, about the Mito:
"n 1994 the bike was restyled by Massimo Tamburini with similar lines to the then new Ducati 916 (a design he also penned). The similarity is particularly visible in the front and rear fairings."

 

Actually, the Mito has existed since 1989.

The 916 look-alike version was just new bodywork on the old mechanicals, it was not a new design just a face-lift.

It is still being produced and sold.

Tom

 

Running parrallel with the 851/888, then later the 916, then the 1098.
Plot thickens surely ?

Captain Fuego

 

I must admit that the MK1 does look a lot like the 851/888
All in all I think cagiva just used the design made by ducati for their superbikes for their mopeds (no offense ). So it is still a cagiva, with a design largely taken from ducati. The 1098 is different though since cagiva no longer owned ducati when the 1098 was designed.

 

Captain Fuego,

I'm sorry. Your right. Now that I look closer I see that the Mito is infact a Ducati. It has the same style swing arm, tresllis frame, brake setup and engine configuration as the Ducati. How could I be so silly?

That must mean, my Jawa Babetta is really a Ducati becasue its a moped the same as a Ducati Cucciolo, and really my honda CT110 is a Ducati because it has the same engine style as and gear lever setup, AND handles just like my Bronco.......

The plot is thickening. Maybe all bikes are really Ducatis, as they all have two wheels and an engine.

The Mito always has and always will be a Cagiva. It looks like the shaddow or a desmoquattro but it is in no way the same. Yes Cagiva owned Ducati for a while, but they are two different companies. My Elephant is a Cagiva, with a Ducati engine, and Husquvarna forks. Its just how it rolls, but it is a Cagiva.

MF

 

The 916 was designed by Tamurini, who worked for Cagiva, not Ducati, so the 916 is really a Cagiva!

And the Mito is an MV Agusta (or actually, a Harley), since Cagiva changed their name to MV Agusta about 10 years ago.

Of course, Cagivas are actually Harleys (even before HD bought MV) as Cagiva got into the bike building business (previously they just made parts) by purchasing Aermacchi from HD back in the '70s, which makes the 916 a HD!

Tom

 

Haha cool info Tom

 

Tom,

so the designer takes no credit for his work?
Purely what badge is on it...............

This ignores the idea what of design briefs, heritage and a whole lot of other things.
Taking your reasoning further then Ducati now cease to exist because HD own them?
And a MV is a Harley........ really ?

This seems to say the old brands cease to exist in the modern cortporate world.


Captain Fuego

 

Mike,
sensible reply if at all possible.

"That must mean, my Jawa Babetta is really a Ducati becasue its a moped the same as a Ducati Cucciolo, and really my honda CT110 is a Ducati because it has the same engine style as and gear lever setup, AND handles just like my Bronco......."

Show some curiosity for the history, please?


Captain Fuego

 

Captain Fuego, Sensible questions if at all possible please? Your jumping all over the place. Want to look at the history of Ducati?

Out of this brief and incomplete list just off the top of my head, where does the race bread Desmoquattro stem from if we are looking at the "history";

Cucciolo?
Cruiser Scooter?
98T2?
175TS?
200Elite?
250 Diana?
Piuma 48?
Brio Scooter?
Apollo?
160 Monza Junior?
125 Cadet?
Scrambler?
RT 450?
GT 750?
Regolarita 125?
860 GT?
Parallel Twin?
Darmah?
TL Pantah?
Indiana?
Monster?
Classic range?
Hypermotard?

Becasue to me, Ducati's history is as much about fast bikes, as about bikes "for the people".

I am really actually wondering now what your basing a Mito being a Ducati by if you statement said "916 is pure Ducati in how it rides and you would find a Mito has the same hard edge sporty manners. Delicate ,yet pin-sharp steering and handling which is deliberatly designed into the bike, same designer." But a slow turning under braked Ducati couldnt be compared to another non Ducati with the same charicteristics?

I'll break it down to the basics for you?

Ducati built by Ducati = Ducati
Ducati engine in Cagiva = Cagiva
Ducati engine in Condor = Condor
Mito with nothing in common with Ducati in built terms, engine type, frame = Cagiva
Ducati engine in Bimota = Bimota
Yamaha engine in Bimota = Bimota

Are we seeing the pattern?

MF

 

Wow. You've been here all of one month Captain and you've pretty much called us a group of silly, insensible, dickheads. Why don't you back up some of you're obviously massive Ducati knowledge by writing something informative in the hall of wisdom. You could also maybe have helped a member out with technical knowledge in one of your 13 posts. Not you. You choose to be a condescending ass instead. I hope you and jesus have fun riding a 350 MKII to some other forum.

 

dnldfte,

your words and why would i say this?
Don't speak for me.
I merely defended my point and people get defensive , i feel some of the replies were in fact condescending rather than mine.

Mike's last post is obviously condescending , but i suppose that is OK ?

You imply my being a recent member in some way diminishes my opinion?



What the original idea was about was the parrallel of the of the two designs, surely this is interesting?

BTW trundelling around on an early narrow case Mark 3 is not such a bad fate on the local moutain roads, not a cafe in sight!


Captain Fuego

 

After reading a few of your posts I looked up all of your post because I was surpised that a person so new to our community would expect us take him as an all seeing all knowing Ducati guru. I was paraphrasing in my post but you did say these things in other posts.

Mike,
sensible reply if at all possible.

Mike,
i am never mixed up and it is silly of you to say so.

500 Sport is a bike hardly anyone has ever ridden but every dichead has an opinion on.

And of course the part about jesus weeping.

You may very well be an incredibly knowledgeable Ducati enthusiast. I would not doubt that in the least. Everyone on this board is a fan of Ducati or they would not be here. Spirited discussions are fun for all. Impress us with your knowledge instead of turning on us when we do not share your view.

 

Dnlfte,

"After reading a few of your posts I looked up all of your post because I was surpised that a person so new to our community would expect us take him as an all seeing all knowing Ducati guru."
Why would i want this ?
I posted the original question as it is so interesting the parallel development of the bikes, clearly the factories/ designer had something in mind?
Blind Freddy can see there is a story.

It is only a forum, not playing for sheep stations as some think.

Frankly the bile and dark sarcasm caught me by surprise, hostility.
Some of the replies make for interesting reading in that they are so condescending and obviously rude, and possibly very conservative.

Leave the bile out guys.



Captain Fuego

 

Cagiva made some awesome bikes , but are they Ducati?
Cagiva also put Ducati back in the winners circle after years.
Mito for one has to be a Ducati as it is not related to anything else .
Just a two-stroke Ducati in my eyes.

Mike,
i am never mixed up and it is silly of you to say so.
I have ridden or owned or worked on practically every Ducati model made.
Bike of choice for me.

One would have to wonder why you would feel the need to ask the question if you already know all the answers.

Maybe you have never seen a MIto?
It's styling is pure 916...

The Opel GT's styling was pure Corvette, and they were both owned by General Motors. Many see the GT as a mini Corvette.

The Opel GT is not a Corvette.

 

hey capt F
im with you--got all confused after 85--ducati changed forever,they never again made bikes for love--only for sale figures,,,such is modern life,,,as to being a newby--ppphhhppppp-post numbers mean bugger all--im on another forem --have made 800 posts and said bugger all-haha--good onya mate

 

try here for your answers
http://bevelducati.proboards.com/index.cgi

 

Great site! Thank you for sharing. I have added it to my favorites.

 

Majorsoftie,

In car design the credit goes to the Carrozzeria rather than the manufacturer, so the great designers Pinin Farina, Zagato, Bertone and Ital design/Giugiaro get credit for their work,
and there is the sense that they own the work rather than the manufacturer.

I don't know everything but do think asking questions is healthy.
The question does not diminish either company but is part looking for an explanation .
The Ducati identity is so unique in the world of design it has no peers, and to see it reflected in a Cagiva model for so long begs question/

Best Corvette made was the GS all alloy race car, 650 bhp conservative hp out of the box, i think 1964, there is a picture of
Bruce McLaren wheelstanding the car out of a corner somewhere .
So the Opel comes distant...


Captain Fuego

 

nottonight68,

thanks for you comment.
It is a difficult area but Ducati bikes certainly pushed the envelope over the years, Paso was a hugely influential design, although it was not a success.
TT series bikes were on the very margin.

I don't like the silly bully tactics of some and the failure to stick to the point and avoid bile.
Ducati always was fearful of offending the market and the 860 series , although good bikes at the time did not find much love.

Posts to commit me to an eternity of riddind a 250 Mark 3 around are silly, worse fates!
Such as a round OZ trip on a CB200?

I don't think like most people , outside the square. Trained in Fine Arts.
The Tamborini connection exists and it may have not occured to other people?

Recently there was discussion that a Citroen design cheif had nearly destroyed Citroen during the 1990's. he had been brought in to clean up the esoteric Citroen image.
In time Citroen found this identity was part of their sales appeal.
Likewise Ducati have somehow preserved a rather unique place where high technology and fashion co-exist.
I sold my old 750 Sport to part-pay for my farm ,which in term assured i don't have to suck shit for eternity.
Somehow we have entered the times when older hippy guys cant afford to by the new toy.

Cheers brother

Captain Fuego

 

Moke1324,

you never answered my question at all.
You simply went into some childlike denial phase as you did not understand or know what i was asking .
It is in part my fault as i thought somebody might know something of the design intentions of Tambo'?
Possibly you are just out of your depth?

Any views on the fact that the MV was a replacement by Tambo' for a Ducati?

Captain Fuego

 

hey capt--you sound like an aussie guy called crazy--youd get on well with him

 

Maybe you should spend less time on the internet and more time riding...