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Can someone explain to me why Ducati kicks a__ against the Gixxers in WSB but gets toasted in AMA. Bayliss was toying with them last weekend in Spain and Mladin and Spies were toying with Hodgson and Bostrom at Barber????
 

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Ducati is not allowed to run WSB-spec bikes in AMA like they are in BSB where Lavilla and Haslam are on top.
 

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I cannot provide you with a complete answer, but consider these few facts and opinions.

1. The bikes are physically different in terms of the allowable configuration. Stated differently, one series allows more departures from bone stock than does the other.

2. Traction control ? HAHAHAHAHAHA ! I'm with Toseland on that one.

3. Differences in fuel. Rocket fuel vs. something closer to what you and I buy at the track. The Ducati.MS physicists can tell you which one works to the best advantage for our twins.

4. Differences in the tracks. A very, very big deal.

5. Differences in tires. With WSBK now in it's third year on Pirellis, it takes away the MAJOR variable of tire advantage. Just think what how much more exciting the issue of tire management by Corser and Bayliss added to the race
as compared to tire manufacturer advantage.

6. Factory support. ( IMHO Suzuki will always provide more support than Ducati since their US market is sooooo much larger than Ducatis). It is my understanding that until last year, Ducati didn't even supply the same year factory bike to the US as they had in WSBK

7. Mat Mladin. Do you have even the smallest idea of how good that man is ?
Savor every minute that he races because you are in the presence of world class riding. Sure, he is a real jerk...blah blah blah....but then so was/is four time WSBK champ Carl Fogarty. So what ?

( By the way, consider Rossi the same way and watch every race even though you may be cheering for Ducati. I guarantee that you will be glad of it when you talk to your kids about the pass that The Doctor put on contender X of that year to take yet another title.)



kingsnake1650 said:
what is the difference in the bike?
 

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Good stuff, all. The fuel thing is big because of the flame propogation in a BIG twin's bore. But I'm told one of the biggest detriments is that the AMA Ducs can't run modified (lighter) crankshafts ala WSB or BSB. Interferes with accelleration and especially with getting the bike turned. Reference some of EBoz's complaints of last year.
 

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bevel450 said:
I cannot provide you with a complete answer, but consider these few facts and opinions.

1. The bikes are physically different in terms of the allowable configuration. Stated differently, one series allows more departures from bone stock than does the other.

2. Traction control ? HAHAHAHAHAHA ! I'm with Toseland on that one.

3. Differences in fuel. Rocket fuel vs. something closer to what you and I buy at the track. The Ducati.MS physicists can tell you which one works to the best advantage for our twins.

4. Differences in the tracks. A very, very big deal.

5. Differences in tires. With WSBK now in it's third year on Pirellis, it takes away the MAJOR variable of tire advantage. Just think what how much more exciting the issue of tire management by Corser and Bayliss added to the race
as compared to tire manufacturer advantage.

6. Factory support. ( IMHO Suzuki will always provide more support than Ducati since their US market is sooooo much larger than Ducatis). It is my understanding that until last year, Ducati didn't even supply the same year factory bike to the US as they had in WSBK

7. Mat Mladin. Do you have even the smallest idea of how good that man is ?
Savor every minute that he races because you are in the presence of world class riding. Sure, he is a real jerk...blah blah blah....but then so was/is four time WSBK champ Carl Fogarty. So what ?
1. How are the bike physically different?
2. Traction control every one is on an even playing field there.
3. Again the suzuki's have to run the same fuel as the Duc's maybe it work better for the I-4s in AMA again I dont understand why that would put the Ducati riders struggling for a top 10 finish.
4. I would say that the US tracks are more tight and technical than the curcuits that WSB runs....... Wouldnt a tighter track suit the Ducatis more than tracks like Qatar?
5. Everyone has the same tire choice... this isnt an advantage or disadvantage.
6. I think Factory support is where the problem is. Suzuki does dump alot of resources in to AMA racing. It pays off for them the GRXR line is probably the best selling sportbike line in history. Maybe Ducati doesnt think winning AMA races would help sales. We all know that its all about the bottom line. I would think that AMA win would tremendously help sale for Ducati.
7. Matt Mladin is a great racer, but so is Neil Hodson. He may not be better than Matt but he has a broader level of experience. That is why people dont like Mladin..... Its not his attitude that bothers me It more his complacence. I think that if Mladin truly was a world class rider he would step up to a world scene
 

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Please revisit these:

2. "Everyone" ? Specifically, that is speculation.

4. I have no idea why a tighter track would favor a Duc. Please explain.

5. You are wrong. They specifically do not have a choice. In WSBK they have Pirelli. You can have your doughnuts with sprinkles, glazed, or powdered, but they must be Pirelli. Period.

6. I think I agree with you. Only a moron would say they are making a first class effort and yet sign Ben Bostrom.

7. About Matt. Take it up with him personally. I think he is the best rider out there on the fastest bike. And now Spies is very quick. Could be a very exciting year.


kingsnake1650 said:
1. How are the bike physically different?
2. Traction control every one is on an even playing field there.
3. Again the suzuki's have to run the same fuel as the Duc's maybe it work better for the I-4s in AMA again I dont understand why that would put the Ducati riders struggling for a top 10 finish.
4. I would say that the US tracks are more tight and technical than the curcuits that WSB runs....... Wouldnt a tighter track suit the Ducatis more than tracks like Qatar?
5. Everyone has the same tire choice... this isnt an advantage or disadvantage.
6. I think Factory support is where the problem is. Suzuki does dump alot of resources in to AMA racing. It pays off for them the GRXR line is probably the best selling sportbike line in history. Maybe Ducati doesnt think winning AMA races would help sales. We all know that its all about the bottom line. I would think that AMA win would tremendously help sale for Ducati.
7. Matt Mladin is a great racer, but so is Neil Hodson. He may not be better than Matt but he has a broader level of experience. That is why people dont like Mladin..... Its not his attitude that bothers me It more his complacence. I think that if Mladin truly was a world class rider he would step up to a world scene
 

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bevel450 said:
Please revisit these:

2. "Everyone" ? Specifically, that is speculation.

4. I have no idea why a tighter track would favor a Duc. Please explain.

5. You are wrong. They specifically do not have a choice. In WSBK they have Pirelli. You can have your doughnuts with sprinkles, glazed, or powdered, but they must be Pirelli. Period.

6. I think I agree with you. Only a moron would say they are making a first class effort and yet sign Ben Bostrom.

7. About Matt. Take it up with him personally. I think he is the best rider out there on the fastest bike. And now Spies is very quick. Could be a very exciting year.
2. the AMA rules allow for but do not required traction control. Ducati can do what they want with their traction control how does this put them at a Disadvantage to the other race team?
5. In the AMA Ducati has the same tires available to them as any of the other race teams...How do tires in the AMA put Ducati at a disadvantage??
7. I agree that he is probably the best in the AMA... Spies is looking good, and Hes from Longview Tx same as me so I gotta cheer him on.
 

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2. I am not understanding you on this. Please re-state.

5. No they do not ! What part of contract law do you not understand ?

7. The best rider on the best bike usually wins.

kingsnake1650 said:
2. the AMA rules allow for but do not required traction control. Ducati can do what they want with their traction control how does this put them at a Disadvantage to the other race team?
5. In the AMA Ducati has the same tires available to them as any of the other race teams...How do tires in the AMA put Ducati at a disadvantage??
7. I agree that he is probably the best in the AMA... Spies is looking good, and Hes from Longview Tx same as me so I gotta cheer him on.
 

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bevel450 said:
2. I am not understanding you on this. Please re-state.

5. No they do not ! What part of contract law do you not understand ?

7. The best rider on the best bike usually wins.
5. What contract law?? Im just not familiar with what you are talking about. However I dont believe that any of the other AMAS riders are on better tire than what the Ducati team has.

Fact..... Ducati is not having podium finishes because of lack of support. The AMA rules even the playing field for EVERYONE. Each Race team is given the same limits to work with.... Do you understand that???
 

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Okay.....every team has a contract to use a particular brand of tire. Some years one is obviously superior to the others, but the choice they make is for the entire year and not race to race. Are we clear on that ?

Do not understand what you are trying to say in your second comment. "...even the playing field......given the same limits to work with..."

Please be specific. This thread is about the differences between the AMA and WSBK bikes, yes ?

Lastly, I see that you are from Midland. Please say hi to Mr. Hall for me !


kingsnake1650 said:
5. What contract law?? Im just not familiar with what you are talking about. However I dont believe that any of the other AMAS riders are on better tire than what the Ducati team has.

Fact..... Ducati is not having podium finishes because of lack of support. The AMA rules even the playing field for EVERYONE. Each Race team is given the same limits to work with.... Do you understand that???
 

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A first rate rider has a first rate pit crew, they are like bread and butter. One cannot survive without the other. We see it in Mladin's success and more so in Rossis. This combination adds up to consistency, jumping around from bike to bike or different teams is detrimental unless you bring your team with you. A hint of this was the 05 AMA preview CD. Everytime Mladin came over the line in first he popped a wheelie, no big deal but the announcer claimed it was to acknowledge and thank his crew first. Sounds like Mladin knows it, but when he takes a victory lap to thank the fans its like he was forced to wave. Mladin's good but not that good without his crew. He had opportunities before and didn't show as well, it helps having a superior machine underneath you.
 

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AMA is an impartial organization??? I think we can all agree on this board that there are alot of incompetent people running AMA. Yeck, several have quit, Board of Directories has been abondoned, they can't even agree on a premier class? AMA has alot of turmoil (see Daytona 200 pace car). It needs to have transparency in the rules/classes (get ride of FX). Allow no factory support in Superstock (privateers only) and allow almost no modifications in supersport! Then re-evaluate the rules in the superbike class. DONE!

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25107

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25048

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25046

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25045

kingsnake1650 said:
Fact..... Ducati is not having podium finishes because of lack of support. The AMA rules even the playing field for EVERYONE. Each Race team is given the same limits to work with.... Do you understand that???
 

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There ya go! It's a team effort and all the pieces have to be in place. Mladin and Co. have the whole package goin on.
 

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There is a lot going on here, so I think i'll start with AMA superbike. The AMA superbike series has been a wreck since 2003.Kawasaki and Yamaha both left the series over rules disputes leaving Suzuki and Honda the only real factory effort in the class. Ducati has not had a real Factory effort in superbike since Eraldo Ferracci ran the team. The Vance and Hines Ducati effort was fruitfull in that it yielded an AMA superbike championship with B-Boz, but its really hard to call that the same Factory effort that the likes of Honda or Suzuki field.
Of all the teams on the grid, the Suzuki has been the most stable the last few years. Mladin, Yates and crew have been together for quite a while and obviously know how to communicate and effectively win races. The only real changes at Suzuki the past few years was the addition of Spies and the departure of Amar Bazzaz. Honda on the other hand decided to stop leasing bikes from HRC and go it on their own. Honda made a major tactical mistake by coming to that decision late in the season. They came in to the begining of last season poorly prepared, with a bike that frankly was not typical of Honda's racing effort. Honda's bike this year seems to be better, but they are still behind. I personnally don't think the CBR1000rr can win the championship. Looking at what they are doing in the AMA and at the world superbike level, it's obvious that the bike is a bit of a turd. Given that, its no wonder that Suzuki keeps winning. As far as Mladin, well i'm going to disagree with you that he is anything "special". He is obviously the best of the Suzuki squad, but with Suzuki consistently placing top 3 positions it is obvious the bike is the best out there (not to metion last years WSC domination as well). Mladin wont be anything special until he faces a higher level of competition.

Now the WSC series is something different all together. Hodgson won his championship when Ducati was the only factory squad in WSC competition. Nothing against Hodgson (I like him as a racer and an individual, and his stock went up when he got into it with Mladin), but he isn't the best representation of a superbike champion (I would say that Bayliss and Edwards would be better examples). The WSC championship suffered the same sort of exodus that the AMA series did. It got an influx of riders with GP experience (Abe, Haga etc.) and saw a bunch of new well suported teams (Ten Kate, Both Yamaha squads etc). The spec tires were met with a lot of skepticism, especially when you consider that the Pirrelli's were four seconds a lap slower at Laguna than the year prior with Michelin. But the racing has turned out to be pretty decent so far this year.
Both series have a lot of different rules. Traction controll is NOT allowed in the AMA superbike series, which doesn't mean it's not being used (I think the Suzuki's may be using an open loop traction control system, but that's just my opinion), but it is allowed in world supers. The tracks are definitely different with the euro tracks smooth wide and the 'merican tracks bumpy and sometimes stop and go. One of the biggest problems for Ducati is that the world superbike setup information can't be used here in the US. Different tires, different tracks different fuel etc. It makes it difficult for the Ducati team to use an of their world superbike experience into wins in the US.
As far as this season goes, i'm excited about the fact that Spies is leading the series. I think Hodgson will get another win before the end of the year. Of course the world superbike series got another great infusion of riders from GP (Bayliss, Xaus and Barros). It's amazing what GP experience does for your riding ability;)
 

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bevel450 said:
Okay.....every team has a contract to use a particular brand of tire. Some years one is obviously superior to the others, but the choice they make is for the entire year and not race to race. Are we clear on that ?

Do not understand what you are trying to say in your second comment. "...even the playing field......given the same limits to work with..."

Please be specific. This thread is about the differences between the AMA and WSBK bikes, yes ?

Lastly, I see that you are from Midland. Please say hi to Mr. Hall for me !
Ok the tire thing is reasonable, I can see how that could hurt a race teams chances.
My 2nd comment was comparing AMA team to AMA team. I understand a little better the differences between the bike but its still not clear to me why in AMA competition Ducati cant do well. My point is that the AMA is set up to give a manufactures a fair shake at race, Why can't Ducati get it together and pull some wins in the AMA??
We have established that it could be lack of support from the factory and possible a raw deal on tires. So maybe I hi-jacked the thread by asking the wrong question........ I would be happy to say hi to Mr. Hall for you... If you will tell me who he is??
 

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Cut and pasted from another/similar thread...

And a given Dunlop that works superbly on a 4-cylinder bike (or on a specific 4-cylinder bike with a particular rider) doesn't necessarily work so well on a Ducati with a different rider. But, hey... they all get "the same tire" so what's the problem? LOL
 
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