[shawngibson]

I guess the title says it, I don't think I've ever seen a titanium trellis...is it a structural thing? Too rigid or something? I'm sure in a year or two there will be aftermarket cf frames for the 1098, but that doesn't tickle me at all...the trellis is a work of art.

Just curious. Mods - feel free to move this to a lazy section if it shouldn't be here

 

[DPG]

I guess the title says it, I don't think I've ever seen a titanium trellis...is it a structural thing? Too rigid or something? I'm sure in a year or two there will be aftermarket cf frames for the 1098, but that doesn't tickle me at all...the trellis is a work of art.

Just curious. Mods - feel free to move this to a lazy section if it shouldn't be here

Subframe :http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myproducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=903%7CFrames%2FSub%2Dframes&productID=3974&showDetail=1&categoryID=904|Ducati%20Sub%2Dframes&vendoridtodisplay=0&filterFor=&collection=903%7CFrames%2FSub%2Dframes

 

[pvflyer]

I guess the title says it, I don't think I've ever seen a titanium trellis...is it a structural thing? Too rigid or something? I'm sure in a year or two there will be aftermarket cf frames for the 1098, but that doesn't tickle me at all...the trellis is a work of art.

Just curious. Mods - feel free to move this to a lazy section if it shouldn't be here

shawngibson, nice Bike you R building there.
I do believe Ti is a bit more flexible then steal or Alluminum and it's does comes in different types of alloy's 6Al/4Vn,6Al/3Vn and so on, NCR does make a rear sub-frame and @ some point they've done a full Ti frame work of art.
The problem with Ti is only a very small number of people really have the facilities to work on it since the room has to be depleated of oxigen and truly knows how to weld it.

Best Regards

 

[shawngibson]

shawngibson, nice Bike you R building there.
I do believe Ti is a bit more flexible then steal or Alluminum and it's does comes in different types of alloy's 6Al/4Vn,6Al/3Vn and so on, NCR does make a rear sub-frame and @ some point they've done a full Ti frame work of art.
The problem with Ti is only a very small number of people really have the facilities to work on it since the room has to be depleated of oxigen and truly knows how to weld it.

Best Regards

Thanks PV, I'm trying.

Wow that motowheels subframe is gorgeous...and expensive - I have the lousy cheap-assed aluminum one on order (j/k, it ain't lousy obviously, but compared to this, it's like instant coffee vs. a $6.00 special concoction at Starbucks...). So a full frame would probably set you back $20G and be a one-off by the sound of it, and you'd really have to trust the artist/engineer.

I had no idea you couldn't have oxygen in the room?

I just noticed some 'rat ARC' bikes from a search, very cool...

Shawn

 

[got556]

Like PV said....the skills it takes to weld Ti....are far and few between as people who can actually do it correctly and safely. Second I would imagine the price of the bikes would skyrocket if they all came w/ Ti frames. It would be cool though lol. As all the frame pieces near anything hot would change those portions of the exterior to a different color than the cooler portions lol. I'd pay to see it...I couldn't afford to be the one showing it.

 

[paulmm600]

chrome moly might be worth a look if you don't like the idea of a c/f frame

 

[shawngibson]

chrome moly might be worth a look if you don't like the idea of a c/f frame

That's true and I'm pretty sure moly has been used by Ducati on race bikes, no? (not that this will ever be a race bike, or rather not that I'll ever have the talent/balls to ride it like one).

I'll look, but right now I'm just planning for some mods over the next few years...a frame is gonna be a BIG change, and financially a doozy LOL...so this is more of a knowledge-building session

Shawn

 

[paulmm600]

i'm pretty sure i've read of ncr making ti frames but yeh big bucks, c/f wheels would be cheaper and make more difference. anyway let us know what you find.

 

[bmitch996]

I have a Ducati Performance Ti subframe on my 999r which is really a work of art compared to he standard aluminum part.

I remember years ago there was a company in Southern CA, San Diego I think that made a Ti frame for the 916/996 which sold for about $12K as I remember.

I think one of the reasons(other than astronomical cost) is that Titanium is brittle and stiff relative to chromolly steel. Take a normal steel bolt and hold it in a vise and whack it from the side with a hammer and it will probably bend. Do the same with a Ti bolt and it will most likely snap off.

 

[tye1138]

Yes, there has been a few titanium and carbon fiber trellis frame knock-off's made.

Titanium: Titanium Frame

Carbon fiber: CF frame Ducati

From what I know (which is very little) about frames, the steal trellis has the proper flex characteristics, then the titanium. This makes the frame more suitable for racing and hence Ducati's continuous use of it. On the same coin, Titanium frame like the NCR frame I listed above, is very expensive and doesn't improve performance very much. The weight difference is roughly 30lb's.

 

[shawngibson]

Yes, there has been a few titanium and carbon fiber trellis frame knock-off's made.

Titanium: Titanium Frame

Carbon fiber: CF frame Ducati

From what I know (which is very little) about frames, the steal trellis has the proper flex characteristics, then the titanium. This makes the frame more suitable for racing and hence Ducati's continuous use of it. On the same coin, Titanium frame like the NCR frame I listed above, is very expensive and doesn't improve performance very much. The weight difference is roughly 30lb's.

30lbs? Wow I think with everything else I've done that would get me around just over 300 dry (like probly 320 or so plus gas etc.), I think. Wow.

Geesh I wish I hadn't started this topic now LOL...

edit - if the entire bike there is only $46,000 the Ti frame can't be THAT much, like maybe $10?

 

[MarcP]

Ti is used in bicycle frames all the time. It takes special tools and a special welder, no big deal for people like Seven or Moots or even Litespeed. The welds on those bikes (well, Seven and Moots) are a work of art.

Ti is not as stiff as steel for a tube of the same thickness and diameter, but it weighs roughly half of steel per cubic centimeter (less dense in engineer-speak). A designer can increase tubing thickness and diameter and get a bike that is both more stiff with less weight. See here.

Ti is not brittle. Depends on the alloy. It flexes and has great memory. Eyeglass frames are made of Ti because they can bend without breaking when someone sits on them. If someone can whack a Ti bolt and have it snap off, either you are superman or it's a really cheap bolt (or really tiny).

So why not a Ti motorcycle frame? I dunno, but a good Ti bicycle frame is in the $3000+ range so that might be a clue. Motowheels wants $1300 just for a simple Ti subframe.

 

[pvflyer]

Ti Ducati

Here is a good example of a work of art.

You,Can clearly see the frame tube diameter being bigger than a regular Cr-Mo frame in order to compensate for Ti's flexibility.

http://www.rubbermag.com/news/0711/071112_01.html

http://proitalia.com/images/NCR-Ti-Frame-1098-848.pdf

http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=24&TID=19607&set_time=1129423326

Best Regards

 

[froggert]

weight savings from the ncr ti frame is less than 30 lbs.

 

[shawngibson]

weight savings from the ncr ti frame is less than 30 lbs.

Yeah I saw that in PV's pdf link. Absolutely gorgeous but really a bling item unless you are really in need of that 1%, for the price.

I love it, want it, but will probably never be able to justify the price...

 

[bevel450]

Simply put, there is no demand for them because the advantages are minimal v. the cost. ( Labor, labor, labor.)

Did someone say the weight delta is 30 lbs ? Sounds high. What is the equivalent configuration stock frame ?

 

[nine16]

There used to be a place called ARC Fabrication that made Ti frames. In fact they kind of specialized in using the Ducati DS motors and made some pretty sick stuff, both with Ti frames and custom (mostly undertail) exhausts for those and Monsters. Unfortunately the guy was a crook and skipped town with a bunch of peoples' money.

 

[MarcP]

The NCR Ti frame is $15,000 to save 12 pounds. The welds look, uh, inexperienced.

I wonder what it would cost to have Moots custom make the same thing? In defense of NCR I suppose a big part of the cost is the development time to get the tube sizes to give the correct stiffness and feel.

 

[SP3]

The problem with Ti is ...... the room has to be depleated of oxygen .... to weld it.

Not at all true. You supply a flow of shielding gas to purge the backside/inside of the weld area.

It takes special tools and a special welder

Yes and no. Yes it does take a special welder - the person doing the work. Not as many people can weld ti.

No - it does not take a special weldor - the machine used to do the work. Any standard TIG weldor can do ti. Also, no special tools are needed to work titanium.

The reasons for the high cost is the raw material cost and the limited work force able to design and work with the material. These automatically reduce the number of items made. Vicious circle/cycle.

 

[tye1138]

Did someone say the weight delta is 30 lbs ? Sounds high. What is the equivalent configuration stock frame ?

Stock frames are almost 40lb, depending on the bike. The later model's are less.