Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum banner

41 - 60 of 62 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,814 Posts
Used the Shorai charger to charge the new battery overnight... still didn't start the bike on the first go. Cool overnight temps so maybe the battery was in the low 40f temp range to start (let the bike sit with ignition on for a minute but I doubt that would create much heat). I then let the bike sit outside in the sun (temps in the mid-50's) for an hour (as well as letting the heat from the failed start attempt soak) and tried again - the bike started right up. I'm thinking these batteries just suck in the north (at least for first start of the day) except for summer... you need to be patient enough to spend 5-10 minutes heating the battery up in the morning before it'll put out enough umph to start the bike.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
40 Posts
Ive been lucky 4x I guess, all my bikes have Shorai batteries. And been lucky for years. When the lead-acid was starting to get dodgy they got replaced with a Shorai. I just referenced the MV because its my oldest bike with the longest running battery and the most inconsistent riding history (its in my living room right now).

Also 6 of my riding buddies have also been lucky as well.

As far as balanced charging, yeah some do. Shorai dont, which is why they are considerably cheaper. If you spend a little more for Ballistic those are supposed to have the battery management hardware integrated. But when I asked around only the professionals, who are spending someone elses money and could lose money if the battery didnt work, said it was worth it.

Shorai even states on their own website (and warranty information) that balanced charging is only really required if the battery is over-discharged

Youre making a mistake comparing a drone battery to a motorcycle battery. One is a deep-cycle workflow vs a SLI workflow. Cycling a battery is considerably more demanding and would require difference maintenance and conditioning.

Im sure if you research and really, really think hard about all of it I am sure there is a sliver of truth in needing to do a rain dance every other day and run 4 special pieces of equipment to make 100% certain that the battery wont murder your mother and rape your father. But Im saying that people are overthinking it. Just run a modern charger (that doesn't try to desulfate or whatever) the battery OR ride the bike regularly and you're likely gonna get years of trouble-free use out of it. You know, just like a liquid or AGM battery.

I will concede the main reason I think people actually buy the things is the stupidest one, weight. But there are real practical advantages for, what, $100 more. Are we really bargain shoppers riding Ducatis anyway?

Edit: This is starting to sound like an oil discussion. Sure you can spend your life sending an annual sample to blackstone to optimize your blend and change intervals. Im just the "get the right spec and change it regularly" guy.
Ryan, it's no doubt true that I am overly anal in taking care of them and the bike batteries are probably much more tolerant. Because I do have the chargers and all the past experience, I tend to treat them just like my drone batteries out of habbit. If you think about it, a modified 998 can do 180mph - that's faster than most single engine private aircraft...on the ground. It pays to take care of it like an aircraft cause if you ride fast, you life could depend on it, so you are right about not being a bargain shopper. It never pays to go cheap. -Gordo
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
40 Posts
Used the Shorai charger to charge the new battery overnight... still didn't start the bike on the first go. Cool overnight temps so maybe the battery was in the low 40f temp range to start (let the bike sit with ignition on for a minute but I doubt that would create much heat). I then let the bike sit outside in the sun (temps in the mid-50's) for an hour (as well as letting the heat from the failed start attempt soak) and tried again - the bike started right up. I'm thinking these batteries just suck in the north (at least for first start of the day) except for summer... you need to be patient enough to spend 5-10 minutes heating the battery up in the morning before it'll put out enough umph to start the bike.
It sound to me like something is still wrong. Ryan may know more since it sound like he lives in a colder clime that me. I haven't ever had cranking problems with my lithium batts. What is the voltage of the battery when fully charged?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,814 Posts
It sound to me like something is still wrong. Ryan may know more since it sound like he lives in a colder clime that me. I haven't ever had cranking problems with my lithium batts. What is the voltage of the battery when fully charged?
I can check voltages tomorrow early I've started grabbing video too. If it's NOT just because it's cold out then I'd like to figure out what it is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,727 Posts
Price has to count for something, because you can’t count on the battery life being double.
Even ignoring relative cost, I don’t see an advantage right now if you don’t race or have high compression. Weight up high where the battery is on a Ducati probably helps change direction with less body input.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,764 Posts
12.6v. Sat on the shelf for 8 months and it was still 12.6v. Starts first or second attempt every time. Power to battery while riding is 13.2v to 13.6v.
 

·
Retired Pipe Polisher C2H6O+
Joined
·
19,072 Posts
This is what's gone on with me lately and batteries. I have Shorai in all my bikes. I've never had a problem with them and all I use is a little Battery Tender once a month to top them up if I haven't been riding them. I have 7 bikes so shit happens.

But on my track bike. I have a Woolich full wide band analyzer system on the bike and can monitor air fuel ratios real time and reflash the ecu after every session on track if needed. I've had a few instances of trashing the ecu during flashing. After working with Woolich I think we found out that the problem is when I go to flash the ecu when the battery voltage is too low.

To make a long story short. I bought a good multi meter instead of relying on dash meter reading or accessories that display voltage. It depends on where in the system the voltage is being read. If you really want to know what's going on invest in a good digital meter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
I can check voltages tomorrow early I've started grabbing video too. If it's NOT just because it's cold out then I'd like to figure out what it is.
Yeah something still doesnt seem optimum. My climate isnt that cold (atlanta, ga) but I ride year round and briefly lived in an apartment with a detached garage. I do recall a couple of times when it was definitely cooler than 40f first thing in the morning after having it in the garage overnight. I would do one of two things. Either leave the iginition (and by extension the headlight) on for a minute most (usually while doing my pre-flight checks)and then it would fire right up OR I would try to fire it once and the load of trying to fire it would cause it to warm up and fire on the second attempt.

But since moving into a house with an attached garage with a guest room above it Ive never had to hit the starter twice. In the dead of winter that garage gets down to maybe 50-52 degrees.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
12.6v. Sat on the shelf for 8 months and it was still 12.6v. Starts first or second attempt every time. Power to battery while riding is 13.2v to 13.6v.
Is that dash indicated (aka with the ignition on causing some drain) or actually with a multimeter? Because Ive never had one of my Shorai read that low with a meter even after sitting all winter.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,814 Posts
So I connected rapidbike so I could monitor voltage (9v battery is dead on my meter). Again temps were in the 30's overnight and are now at 44f. The video below was after 5 minutes of ignition on "warm up" and two start attempts (which again should warm the battery up quite a bit). Cliff notes... voltage at 12.7v with ignition, but drops to the low 9v range during start and doesn't turn the bike over fast enough to start.
Mulit start fail new Shorai 44f morning.

I've checked the connections again and they're very tight.

When I get a minute I'm going to reconnect the old battery and monitor voltage during start.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,764 Posts
Is that dash indicated (aka with the ignition on causing some drain) or actually with a multimeter? Because Ive never had one of my Shorai read that low with a meter even after sitting all winter.
12.6v sitting in the bike with multimeter. Everything off on the bike.

I just tested it with the multimeter. It's been out of the bike for a month. 13.0v
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
40 Posts
So I connected rapidbike so I could monitor voltage (9v battery is dead on my meter). Again temps were in the 30's overnight and are now at 44f. The video below was after 5 minutes of ignition on "warm up" and two start attempts (which again should warm the battery up quite a bit). Cliff notes... voltage at 12.7v with ignition, but drops to the low 9v range during start and doesn't turn the bike over fast enough to start.
Mulit start fail new Shorai 44f morning.

I've checked the connections again and they're very tight.

When I get a minute I'm going to reconnect the old battery and monitor voltage during start.
Dave, you voltages should be: Fully charged: 13.7V Storage:13.4V Fully discharged: about 13.2V

There is something wrong with the battery it sound like. I would get your receipt and exchange it. -Gordo
 

·
Retired Pipe Polisher C2H6O+
Joined
·
19,072 Posts
Dave, on our bikes they won’t start if the voltage drops below 11.8v IIRC. Even if the starter turns it over. The ECU won’t let it start.

I’d say bad battery.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Dave, you voltages should be: Fully charged: 13.7V Storage:13.4V Fully discharged: about 13.2V

There is something wrong with the battery it sound like. I would get your receipt and exchange it. -Gordo
Yeah my Shorais all read up in the mid 13s. According to the manufacturer if the battery hits 13.1 its time to charge it.

Lithiums run at a slightly higher voltage and dont drop volts the same as old school batteries do, in a linear fashion. They instead are able to hold the high voltage for as long as possible until they are basically dead, then the voltage drops off a cliff.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,764 Posts
I argue with facts often, even when I know that the "facts" are "true." I prefer experience over "facts." I encourage this approach of acquiring knowledge in the information age, experience to know facts.

My current Shorai cranks The Time Machine over just fine with a static charge of 12.6v or higher. No problem in two years. Squish around .88mm to .91mm so it has to face a compression issue higher than OEM.

On my previous Shorai, I could get it to crank when the static charge was 9.2v, in tender for 24 hours, attempt a start or two till it fell dead, charge 8 hours to 11.4v, and I could get the bike running.

I am not saying this is normal operation, but I do know the limits to the battery and am not concerned at 12.6v.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,814 Posts
I ran a second "charge/balance" cycle using the shorai charger and this time when it was done the powered off voltage was 13.7, and the ignition on voltage was 13.2 or so. Cranking still caused it to drop to 10'ish volts but this time it did start the bike (and it was noticeably snappier turning it over).

I'm still wondering how much of this is cold weather based... and that has me concerned because their recommendation for cold weather is to let the battery warm up by giving it time with the ignition on (draw of lights and so on)... but on the DVT bikes the headlights don't draw much (led) and they also don't turn on with the ignition (drl's turn on... and they probably don't draw squat)... even the grip heaters won't turn on until the bike is running (tried using them to create a current draw... no dice). The only way to draw significant current is to run the starter... and doing that multiple times in a row (regularly) is not a good idea.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
40 Posts
I ran a second "charge/balance" cycle using the shorai charger and this time when it was done the powered off voltage was 13.7, and the ignition on voltage was 13.2 or so. Cranking still caused it to drop to 10'ish volts but this time it did start the bike (and it was noticeably snappier turning it over).

I'm still wondering how much of this is cold weather based... and that has me concerned because their recommendation for cold weather is to let the battery warm up by giving it time with the ignition on (draw of lights and so on)... but on the DVT bikes the headlights don't draw much (led) and they also don't turn on with the ignition (drl's turn on... and they probably don't draw squat)... even the grip heaters won't turn on until the bike is running (tried using them to create a current draw... no dice). The only way to draw significant current is to run the starter... and doing that multiple times in a row (regularly) is not a good idea.
Dave, sorry I can't speak to the temperature issue with these LiFe batteries - I live in the desert and it never gets very cold here. I can tell you the the LiPoly batteries I use in drones are affected heavily by temperature and that most Li batteries exhibit similar properties, so.... Others here probably have some experience with cold starts. I wish I had more right now...it's 102F here as I type. -Gordo
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
Shorai's in all my bikes and living in the north east it's 30 seconds of key on high beam twice before I try to crank either Duc. Otherwise, it's just gonna click and bitch until it's warm.

For what's it's worth, my buddy gave me the LFX-14 from an airhead BMW he built (we cannot get the thing to charge worth a damn) than had dropped to about 3v. It took a full day but the Shorai charger did recover it back to 13.3v and it held a charge so these batteries are more robust then some might think.

If you don't have a reliable way to draw current other then the starter that sucks but the starter should survive multiple cranks so long as you give it a minute to cool off. It's extended cranking for long period that will kill it from heat, a couple cranks to get the batt warm won't ruin it for the few times it's needed.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
40 Posts
Shorai's in all my bikes and living in the north east it's 30 seconds of key on high beam twice before I try to crank either Duc. Otherwise, it's just gonna click and bitch until it's warm.

For what's it's worth, my buddy gave me the LFX-14 from an airhead BMW he built (we cannot get the thing to charge worth a damn) than had dropped to about 3v. It took a full day but the Shorai charger did recover it back to 13.3v and it held a charge so these batteries are more robust then some might think.

If you don't have a reliable way to draw current other then the starter that sucks but the starter should survive multiple cranks so long as you give it a minute to cool off. It's extended cranking for long period that will kill it from heat, a couple cranks to get the batt warm won't ruin it for the few times it's needed.
Dan, Thanks for the insights. Apparently, many of us are still new to using the LiFe batteries in the bikes and still getting a feel for how how much abuse they can tolerate. It's good to know they can take some abuse and occasional mistakes and not die. Dave will be happy to know that his battery might not be bad, as well. I like mine and have no plans to return to conventional batteries. -Gordo
 
41 - 60 of 62 Posts
Top