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Discussion Starter #1
While I've owned and enjoyed my Multistrada for a few years now, it still has certain unnecessary features meant to make it similar to a BMW R1200GS. You have to tiptoe on an R1200GS, and there's a purpose and reason for it. There's no practical reason why I have to tiptoe around parking lots on my Multistrada. The beak on the BMW serves a specific function; the Multistrada's is decorative.

Development of the Multistrada has gone in a direction so that there's no hope of it remotely being a resurrection of the ST-series: A sportbike with a few tweaks to turn it into a capable tourer. Kawasaki just did it with the H2 SX, so it's not exactly impossible.

And then it occurred to me: build a new ST based around the new V-4. I bet such a bike would be a hit. With a normal ride height, it would remain a true sport tourer, and all y'all who've refused to accept the Multistrada (which is a great sport tourer, but does it in it's own unique, non-traditional way) would see the spiritual return of the ST. Bet you'd see some conquest sales from the Honda Interceptor crowd, and with 220+hp, it would make quite a statement regarding Ducati performance and granturismo riding.

And since the styling would have to be part of the Panigale/Supersport family, if done right it'd be one hell of a beautiful machine.

Downside is having 4-cylinders; I own Ducatis because I love twins. But the Desmosedici Stradale is reasonably lumpy, and it's a platform from which Ducati could legitimately build a new ST4 - something that will never happen with the Testastretta series.
 

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You have something there, the original ST's did have chunks of Superbike in them so why not.

Thinking about it I can testify myself to the interchangebility of parts there has always been across the duke range.

I'm hoping to go to the factory in June and in the unlikely event I meet any designers will mention it to them.

Even if I couldn't afford it I'd like to ride it for sure. Bring it on Ducati!
 

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The bike the OP is asking for is already out, it's called Supersport 939 and it's supposed to fill "that" gap i.e, a bike for those that don't want a tall ADV bike and prefer a more sporty looking bike with a more sporty riding position - there's even OEM side hardbags for it.



No, it's not a V4 and it doesn't have 200bhp but other than that...

My crystal ball tells me that we'll see a Supersport 1200 in the near future since, well, it's the next logical step for this model (+20/30bhp, kinks ironed out, more e-gizmos etc).

As for a V4 bike (besides the Pani), well, i think that that we'll have to wait years for that since Duc is going to keep it as a "selling point" of sorts for its Superbike lineup.

I can most definitely see a Monster V4/MTS V4 or what have you down the line but...it's gonna take some years gents

For now, the Supersport 939 is the new ST.
 

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Rosso, I would respectively disagree... in a way... and back Kimetcapitin. I, myself, would be in the "Take my money NOW" camp if Ducati were to make a TRUE sport touring machine like out ST's powered by the V4 plant. I've actually been putting a lot of though (daydreaming, really) into this subject. There really is no real replacement for our ST on the market today. The new SS comes close, but it is a much smaller bike that doesn't have as much carrying capacity - in terms of the back seat. I really can't fit my not-so-light-as-she-used-to-be wife on the back seat of that SS and take off for the weekend/week. I can do that on my ST. I could throw her on a Multi, sure, but I personally find that bike fairly uncomfortable and, quite frankly, like the Capitan above, it just doesn't thrill me in any way.

You are right, though, I'm sure, that Duc feels the SS is the new ST and that a V4 Multi might be out in a few years, but neither the SS or the multi, in my opinion anyway, is a replacement for the ST.
 

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Rosso, I would respectively disagree... in a way... and back Kimetcapitin. I, myself, would be in the "Take my money NOW" camp if Ducati were to make a TRUE sport touring machine like out ST's powered by the V4 plant. I've actually been putting a lot of though (daydreaming, really) into this subject. There really is no real replacement for our ST on the market today. The new SS comes close, but it is a much smaller bike that doesn't have as much carrying capacity - in terms of the back seat. I really can't fit my not-so-light-as-she-used-to-be wife on the back seat of that SS and take off for the weekend/week. I can do that on my ST. I could throw her on a Multi, sure, but I personally find that bike fairly uncomfortable and, quite frankly, like the Capitan above, it just doesn't thrill me in any way.

You are right, though, I'm sure, that Duc feels the SS is the new ST and that a V4 Multi might be out in a few years, but neither the SS or the multi, in my opinion anyway, is a replacement for the ST.
KB, i know what you're saying but :

The OEM ST saddle/seat ain't nothing to write home about regarding pillion comfort since most of the owners/riders change it for an aftermarket (gel) one.
Regarding "butt space" again, i've found it to be a - let's say - very subjective thing, meaning, it really depends...it depends on butt size, how "trained" that butt is, general riding position of the bike in question (pillion position also depending on the rider's one) etc etc., basically, it's more about "space" in general than the seat/saddle per se.
Example : The old air-cooled MTS 1000/1100...brother, that pillion seat is pure fookin' torture - and this a TOURING bike we're talking about - it boggles my mind of who thought of putting that "Pentagon-like maxi-pad®" for a seat, it stops blood circulation between the thighs and your butt gets numb in no time -and i'm talking about my but, a guy in his late 30's relatively fit, i can't even begin to imagine what would happen if you put a 50+year old lady's butt on there.
I've also been a pillion on a ST, again, the OEM seat ain't nothing to write home about, i'd have expected it to be more comfy since, well, it's supposed to be a touring bike.

Let me put it this way : my M1200's seat is way more comfortable for the pillion compared to some "touring" bikes, then again, it is a new-ish Duc and general comfort is improved compared to the Ducs of yore, both regarding the whole rider triangle/riding position and seat comfort , heck the 1200's saddle feels like a GS1200's one when it comes to pillion comfort compared to my previous air-cooled monster.
Again, the whole "needs to be comfy for my girlfriend's/wife's butt" thing is very subjective in my humble opinion my good man as it depends on many factors.

Now, regarding the V4 (power) thing :
Are the 112 ponies of the SS939 considered a low number for touring ? If yes, why ? A bike that can do 200+ Km/h while 2up riding with hardbags installed ? Why would it need more power for touring purposes ?
If - hypothetically - a Supersport 1200 is introduced in a couple of years with 140/150bhp with standard Anti-wheelie, cornering ABS, Q.S and all the other nice MTS e-goodies (e-suspensions maybe?) will that be good enough or do you absolutely must have a V4 ? what would the reason be ?

There's no chance for a new ST gents, the Ducati line-up already has touring bike in the form of the Multistrada, and for those that want something more sporty looking there's always the new Supersport, it's just not realistically possible (nor economically/commercially feasible for Ducati) to produce another bike with fairings since - again - the Supersport is out.
Don't know, maybe a bigger (+longer wheelbase) re-designed Supersport 1200 could do the trick but a new/another bike in that vein in the form of a new ST ? No chance in hell gents.

As for the MTS...they've always been Ducati's ugliest bikes both the aircooled and the liquid-cooled ones, personally, while i can understand that they're really nice bikes and do well regarding the purpose they were built for...i never understood the craze around them, then again, i never was a fan of ADV bikes (with the exception being the MV turismo veloce) so...

Again, there will be V4 bikes in the Ducati line-up down the line besides the Pani, we'll just have to wait :)

Cheers
 

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If cash isn’t a problem, your dream bike might already exist out of the Ducati lineup: Motus https://www.cycleworld.com/2016/02/18/2016-motus-mst-and-mstr-sport-touring-motorcycle-review-pricing-specifications
This is true. I am currently shopping for my next bike, and it will be more sport-touring oriented than my last bike (M900 Monster). I rode that Monster for 24 years and 265K miles, to 35 states plus parts of Canada and Mexico. I'm traveling ever more these das, and want something with better carrying capacity, decent passenger accommodations, and a bit more long-distance comfort. My current short list is the Ducati 939 Supersport (the safe and easy choice), a Moto Guzzi (the cheapest of my choices, and proven durability), the KTM 1290 SuperDuke (the gonzo option), or the Motus MST.

PhilB
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The thought occurred to me because of the thought process Ducati went through when they initially came up with the ST4 - take the existing superbike motor, stick a different frame and swingarm around it to support the styling of the touring bike, throw some bags on it and there you go.

No, it wasn't the best engineered bike. But it had a ton of character, and I've had some of my best riding moments on that 916-powered bike, even considering what I own now.

It wouldn't take much for Ducati to put together an over the top sport touring bike. The current Supersport is nice, and feels more grunty than it would seem on paper. But it's no ST; it's a refinement of the air-cooled Supersports.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
KB, i know what you're saying but :

The OEM ST saddle/seat ain't nothing to write home about regarding pillion comfort since most of the owners/riders change it for an aftermarket (gel) one.
Regarding "butt space" again, i've found it to be a - let's say - very subjective thing, meaning, it really depends...it depends on butt size, how "trained" that butt is, general riding position of the bike in question (pillion position also depending on the rider's one) etc etc., basically, it's more about "space" in general than the seat/saddle per se.
Example : The old air-cooled MTS 1000/1100...brother, that pillion seat is pure fookin' torture - and this a TOURING bike we're talking about - it boggles my mind of who thought of putting that "Pentagon-like maxi-pad®" for a seat, it stops blood circulation between the thighs and your butt gets numb in no time -and i'm talking about my but, a guy in his late 30's relatively fit, i can't even begin to imagine what would happen if you put a 50+year old lady's butt on there.
I've also been a pillion on a ST, again, the OEM seat ain't nothing to write home about, i'd have expected it to be more comfy since, well, it's supposed to be a touring bike.

Let me put it this way : my M1200's seat is way more comfortable for the pillion compared to some "touring" bikes, then again, it is a new-ish Duc and general comfort is improved compared to the Ducs of yore, both regarding the whole rider triangle/riding position and seat comfort , heck the 1200's saddle feels like a GS1200's one when it comes to pillion comfort compared to my previous air-cooled monster.
Again, the whole "needs to be comfy for my girlfriend's/wife's butt" thing is very subjective in my humble opinion my good man as it depends on many factors.

Now, regarding the V4 (power) thing :
Are the 112 ponies of the SS939 considered a low number for touring ? If yes, why ? A bike that can do 200+ Km/h while 2up riding with hardbags installed ? Why would it need more power for touring purposes ?
If - hypothetically - a Supersport 1200 is introduced in a couple of years with 140/150bhp with standard Anti-wheelie, cornering ABS, Q.S and all the other nice MTS e-goodies (e-suspensions maybe?) will that be good enough or do you absolutely must have a V4 ? what would the reason be ?

There's no chance for a new ST gents, the Ducati line-up already has touring bike in the form of the Multistrada, and for those that want something more sporty looking there's always the new Supersport, it's just not realistically possible (nor economically/commercially feasible for Ducati) to produce another bike with fairings since - again - the Supersport is out.
Don't know, maybe a bigger (+longer wheelbase) re-designed Supersport 1200 could do the trick but a new/another bike in that vein in the form of a new ST ? No chance in hell gents.

As for the MTS...they've always been Ducati's ugliest bikes both the aircooled and the liquid-cooled ones, personally, while i can understand that they're really nice bikes and do well regarding the purpose they were built for...i never understood the craze around them, then again, i never was a fan of ADV bikes (with the exception being the MV turismo veloce) so...

Again, there will be V4 bikes in the Ducati line-up down the line besides the Pani, we'll just have to wait :)

Cheers
realistically speaking, no street bike "needs" more than 100 horsepower. but the customer's hunger for power is insatiable.

functionally speaking, the Multistrada 1200 IS Ducati's sport touring bike. It's comfortable; I've logged many a mile on mine with my wife on back...and with the way she packs, it's a good thing I got the Granturismo version :p It is fast. It's a lot faster than people think. And it can handle like a sportbike - all those Pikes Peaks wins weren't flukes. I haven't tested it yet, but I believe I can lap my Multistrada on the track with 10% of my 1299S lap time (I'm just an average rider). It does everything a sport touring bike does, but no one would ever say that it's DNA can be drawn back to the ST4.

To be something like the ST4, there has to be an element of crazy in the design. The Multistrada is too cohesively engineered, So is the Supersport. They're great bikes and everything works together in synchronicity. There's just no crazy element, and a spiritual successor to the ST4 must have some crazy built into it.

What probably got the idea in my head is what Kawasaki did. They took the H2 - a bike that really defies categorization, and turned it into a sport touring bike. No, the ergonomics are not upright, but my biggest takeaway from the Kawasaki H2 wasn't the power, or that it can actually turn...it was how comfortable the seating position was and that you could actually see out of the mirrors. So it really didn't take much to evolve the H2 SX and bring to market a 200hp sport touring bike. And despite the luggage and the categorization as a sport tourer, there's that element of crazy - the supercharger. And...it weighs as much as you think it would. Despite that, they followed the recipe Ducati pioneered with the ST4.

I doubt the Audi bean counters would ever green light such a project, but Ducati could develop a batshit crazy sport touring bike on the cheap. Take the Panigale V4S, do a totally new subframe with comfortable seats and mounting points for side and top cases, raise the handlebars - not to Multistrada heights, but lifted the way the ST4 had its bars raised higher than what you get with clip-ons - with a spacer. Add in the bluetooth electronic gizmos, and an electronic rear shock ride height adjuster (as found on Multistradas) to the electronic Ohlins, do a new somewhat larger Panigale-esque front cowl and a GPS mounting location, and what you'll have is a 226hp sport touring bike that I bet will weigh at least 50lbs lighter than what Kawasaki put together. And I honestly think I listed every change required to turn a superbike into a sport touring bike in the spirit of the ST4.

Anyone who's owned an ST4 and really appreciated what it was, knew it wasn't the most comfortable bike around. It had its quirks. The 916 wasn't designed for stop and go traffic...and hence the ST4 shared the same flaws. But it had character in spades. I still miss my ST4 from time to time because it oozed with quirky personality.

And don't tell me there's no marketing value in saying "we make a touring bike that weighs 480lbs and makes 226hp - more than any Japanese hyperbike."
 
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I think the SuperSport looks good from the side and does have plenty of grunt for the size motor that's in it but for me it isn't a suitable replacement for my Multi. I don't necessarily need more power than my 2014 Multi provides but I'm not taking less either. A 1200 SuperSport would get my attention as would a true ST bike with a V4 but until we have that, there really isn't much that interests me.

I've just gone through a bout of looking at something else to buy over my Multi and I haven't found it. Yes, the new Multistrada is a nice bike but am I willing to fork over another $15k right now to get that bike vs. what my 2014 offers me? No. Not to say I wouldn't buy a new Multi but I'm going to try and give Ducati a couple more years to come out with something else, or at least tease it, before buying another Multi. My extended warranty on my bike is good until November 2021.
 

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If cash isn’t a problem, your dream bike might already exist out of the Ducati lineup: Motus https://www.cycleworld.com/2016/02/18/2016-motus-mst-and-mstr-sport-touring-motorcycle-review-pricing-specifications
Oh yes... I have been well aware of Motus for quite some time. I have met the higher Mucky-Mucks back when they were just in pre-production and got the chance to sit on and hear some of the prototypes several years ago. Last weekend, as it turns out, I was able to sit on the some of the production bikes while at the Americade rally. I am TOTALLY sold on that machine. but as I have two young kids, I feel I may need to sell one of them to afford the bike. :surprise: :grin2: Definitely something to save money for.

https://www.motusmotorcycles.com/home
 

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I don't think a new ST needs to be a v4. Ducati makes very powerful v-twins, which would work just fine. What made the ST's (all variants, not just the ST4) different from the competition was not that they were crazy. I don't see any crazy in them. But they were lighter than the rest. This gave them a much sportier feel. This is where the Multi's diverge from what made the ST's special.

The new Support Sport is no ST. I test drove one. A fun cool bike I wouldn't mind owning. But the ergonomics are not right for true touring. Sure you can do a few hundred miles in a day with a SS, but you probably could not sustain that for many days, as you can with an ST. The windscreen on the SS just doesn't cut it for long rides. Too much air hits the rider for my taste. Another problem that the SS has was engine heat management. During my test ride, one of my thighs was getting cooked. And it wasn't a hot day.

If Ducati made a bike that had the looks of the current sport bikes with proper ST ergonomics, at least 150 hp, comfortable 2 up riding and lighter than the current crop of ST's, I would probably sign up for that.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
I don't think a new ST needs to be a v4. Ducati makes very powerful v-twins, which would work just fine. What made the ST's (all variants, not just the ST4) different from the competition was not that they were crazy. I don't see any crazy in them. But they were lighter than the rest. This gave them a much sportier feel. This is where the Multi's diverge from what made the ST's special.

The new Support Sport is no ST. I test drove one. A fun cool bike I wouldn't mind owning. But the ergonomics are not right for true touring. Sure you can do a few hundred miles in a day with a SS, but you probably could not sustain that for many days, as you can with an ST. The windscreen on the SS just doesn't cut it for long rides. Too much air hits the rider for my taste. Another problem that the SS has was engine heat management. During my test ride, one of my thighs was getting cooked. And it wasn't a hot day.

If Ducati made a bike that had the looks of the current sport bikes with proper ST ergonomics, at least 150 hp, comfortable 2 up riding and lighter than the current crop of ST's, I would probably sign up for that.
My old ST4 had a wet weight of 529lbs. So...if it had say 150hp, a lot more torque, and weighed the same, then we'd have an evolution of the ST. Well, I have one in my garage - Multistrada 1200S, wet weight 527lbs. In both power and handling it runs circles around the ST4, but it's no ST.

"Crazy" might be misleading. Ducati took a 916 motor, changed nothing on it, and then stuck it into an ST chassis. All the character and an admitted lack of refinement largely came from the superbike motor and the way it delivered power. It would be the same if Ducati developed a Sport Touring chassis, probably much like the Supersport with hard luggage, then stuck an unmodified 1299 Superquadro motor in it.

I can see a Supersport 1200, or possibly 1100, eventually coming out. Hard bags and real luggage capacity seems to be limited to the Multistrada however; there's no way Ducati would put the Testastretta 1200 in a Supersport - it'd poach sales from one lineup to another. A true ST would have to be different enough in the lineup to not step on the toes of either the Multstrada or the Supersport. And the only way I see that happening is by using the V-4.

Heat management isn't great on many current Ducatis. It's fine on the Multistrada and Diavel (both variations). The Supersport did get a little hot, but not as much as my 1299 does. And they need to include free nomex suits with the Panigale V-4.
 

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...And the only way I see that happening is by using the V-4.
If they didn't put the superquattro twin on an ST, why would they put the stradale on one?

They'd have to put a $20k+ price tag on it. Based on the latest incarnation, that should tell you what they think of the ST market. Most think the existing offering is too expensive at sub $15k.

IMO...It's not gonna happen.
 

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As far as power goes, I rode a 750 monster for 16 years, was totally happy with it and hardly ever needed more power. Heck, my wife and I had, many a time, had ridden her little '78 Honda 400 twin, two-up on the highway at 70mph. The NEED for power is not really the thing... it' the WANT. >:) My 944 has more power than I need, and just the Testastretta 1200 is crazy overkill for what I need. But that V4 is just really cool. If it was in a true ST chassis, I would be in Heaven. 0:)

IMO...It's not gonna happen.
sigh... You're right of course, but it's nice for us to dream.
 

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As far as power goes, I rode a 750 monster for 16 years, was totally happy with it and hardly ever needed more power. Heck, my wife and I had, many a time, had ridden her little '78 Honda 400 twin, two-up on the highway at 70mph. The NEED for power is not really the thing... it' the WANT. >:) My 944 has more power than I need, and just the Testastretta 1200 is crazy overkill for what I need. But that V4 is just really cool. If it was in a true ST chassis, I would be in Heaven. 0:)



sigh... You're right of course, but it's nice for us to dream.
This.

What would work for me is what Ducati did with the original ST - use the Monster 1200 platform with some wind protection, fine tune the egros, two-up seat, keep it under 500 lbs (wet, no fuel), and "real" hard cases an call it a day. 150 HP and 93 ft/lbs of torque - that works for me.

Scott L.
 

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I really like the looks of the new SS, but it appears to me a one rider bike with limited range capabilities based on lack of luggage capacity, wind blast protection and probably seating ergos. It may be fine for a younger rider on a day long ride or overnighter, but I don't see it fitting my needs. It just reminds me of a more comfortable superbike, not a bad thing, but it misses the points others have mentioned and that is the tour part of the bike.
 

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Anyone who questions a V-4 has a sport-tourer has never owned one.I have had 3 VFR's and an ST1100,and they are the best combination of usable power and excitement.Yes we don't need a 200HP ST but they could go smaller displacement and de-tune for more low-end/midrange and you would have one hell of an ST engine,Get the frame geometry right and touring necessities and 16K services and you would have a winning Super Sport Tourer.Oh and a shaft drive please.Yes,yes,calm down,the newer technology reducing shaft drive jacking greatly to which you don't even know you are driving a shaft.I have a 25 year old ST1100 and an old tech 02 Guzzi V11S and I never think about or notice that I'm driving a shafty.Motus is for wealthy people,other than $ and being ugly it is perfect for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
https://www.autocarindia.com/bike-news/more-ducati-models-to-get-v4-engines-409333

called it!! Instead of making the Multistrada a V-4, I hope they keep it a twin, and relaunch the ST4 as a V-4. With different motors, an ST4 lineup wouldn't directly cannibalize Multistrada sales. Or do it the other way around; do an all new V-4 Multistrada and then keep the Superquadro twin alive in an ST4.

Either way, to me the ST4 was sport touring with a powerful emphasis on sport. I would hope a new ST4 would be slotted in between the Multistrada's 150-160hp and the 200hp made by the current superbikes.
 
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As an owner of an ST4s I can't help but wonder why the whole 'sport touring' genre evaporated. I sat on a MultiStrada at Munroe's and realized just what I'd read - this could be a nice touring bike. So the 'loss' of the genre is really a semantic issue, the bikes are still there. Yes, a very short-stroke V4 might be a nice idea, but why the extra 2 cylinders? Aren't these bikes a little heavy already? For me, the human scale wants a bike 410-435lbs. I'd rather have a lighter Multistrada than a V4.
 
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