Hey Everyone! May's Bike of the Month challenge is now open for entries!

The Wiseco piston debate - DS1000

3052 Views 14 Replies 7 Participants Last post by belter, Dec 1, 2019

Ohm3d

Discussion Starter · Nov 28, 2019

I am wanting to install some 94mm high compression pistons (11.5 or 12:1) in my S2R1000. Motor is a ds1000 with 20,000 miles on it. I have been trying to find info on people who have actually done this. I have 2 buddies who have used the Wiseco pistons (FBF) with seemingly little issue. The 3 local shops that do Ducati work said they wont touch Wiseco pistons, and recommended Pistals. I know JE made pistons along the way, but cant find any info on them. Pistals are easily double the price of Wiseco. Wiseco have been around a long time, and guys use their pistons in cars, sleds, dirtbikes, so why do they have such a variable reputation in the Ducati world? With the money differential, I was going to add a few supporting mods like a light flywheel, DP ecu flash, light light head work.

E-pinions please

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

Rex Coil 7

· #2 · Nov 28, 2019

JE makes pistons to order. I've had them make pistons for any number of engines over the years. I think the only hitch was that you had to buy a minimum of four pistons if you had them made to order. I still have several of the ~extras~ kicking around from jobs I did on 2 cylinder engines. Those are pretty much used as pencil holders, paper weights, and door stops now.

JE Pistons: Industry Leader in Forged Pistons

JE Pistons leads the industry in the manufacture of quality forged pistons for the domestic automotive, sport compact, powersports and racing markets. Proseal rings and other accessories are also available to complete your rebuild.

www.jepistons.com

Reactions: 1

Cowens726

· #3 · Nov 28, 2019

I'm not sure about Wiseco's 4t pistons but when I was dirt riding on old 2t bikes everyone always said to make sure that the bore was sized properly to the Wiseco piston rather than the stocker. IIRC the difference was the stock pistons are cast where Wiseco are forged and the pistons heat and expand differently especially in the old air cooled 2t engines. I was always told that if you were staying standard bore stay with OEM but if the cylinder was bored, Wiseco were fine as long as the cylinder was set up to accommodate the Wiseco.

Ohm3d

Discussion Starter · #4 · Nov 28, 2019

Cowens726 said:
I'm not sure about Wiseco's 4t pistons but when I was dirt riding on old 2t bikes everyone always said to make sure that the bore was sized properly to the Wiseco piston rather than the stocker. IIRC the difference was the stock pistons are cast where Wiseco are forged and the pistons heat and expand differently especially in the old air cooled 2t engines. I was always told that if you were staying standard bore stay with OEM but if the cylinder was bored, Wiseco were fine as long as the cylinder was set up to accommodate the Wiseco.

would that line of logic not also apply to Pistals though?

belter

· #5 · Nov 28, 2019

wiseco made the ferraci pistons, and it's the same company as je. ask if those who won't use them have had them fail, or if it's just hearsay and speculation.

the newer pistals are a better / more modern piston design.

Reactions: 1

Rex Coil 7

· #6 · Nov 28, 2019

belter said:
wiseco made the ferraci pistons, and it's the same company as je. ask if those who won't use them have had them fail, or if it's just hearsay and speculation.

the newer pistals are a better / more modern piston design.

Ain't that a bitch! Wiseco/Ferraci/JE .... all the same bunch? That's cool to know. Are they all made in the same production facility?

ducvet

· #7 · Nov 29, 2019

2

JE and wiseco are done on different lines so there will be some differences. Wiseco would be a slight step up over JE IMHO, Cp are also owned by wiseco and are trying to be a boutique piston like pistals. Mahle and Pistal are both premium and cost a premium, but ohhhh they look good. So if you goal is to have one sitting on your desk not much beats a Pistal.

I have used plenty of JE,Cp,Mahle,pistal and wiseco's. I have seen all of them wear out and some fail. I would be happy to put any of them in my own motors but it will depend on what you are building.

Race engines have different demands than a high mile motor, want a set of long rod, high compression, big bore , 2-ring short skirt slipper pistons? They are great for power but will you be willing to change them every 2000-4000 miles? Want a larger skirt for better support and less wear it will cost you some frictional losses. My point is know what you want and why you want it, if you are un-sure why you want something get the answer clear before spending money. you have no idea how often it is incorrectly assumed a race part is "better" and put into a application where it was never intended.

Building a street motor = buy a street motor part
Building a race motor= spend 10 times what any same person would do and then do it all over again every few years.

Understand if you buy a brand-X piston it was made by the piston company but most of the time the piston is designed by a person who filled out a build sheet and an engineer at the piston company "looked at" to make sure nothing is crazy out of spec. Yes Ferracci pistons were wiseco but 99% chance Eraldo Ferracci designed them as Bruce Meyers of BCM/Meyers performance etc has done. These are guys who built many race motors to find what works and then made them streetable. If you buy a pison from wiseco know that 2 sets from different re-sellers could be different designs.

Case in point, two pistons below. Both 94mm pistals, Both sold by same seller but designed/built by pistal at different times. Newer design is more modern than the earlier piston but both are doing the same job.

I have used enough wiseco's of good design I have no hesitation to use them in my motors if building a street/ trackday motor. If I want something more special then I look to pistal, mahle or Cp.

I am not as big a fan of drop in pistons due to I will re-plate 90% of the time to control piston to wall and most drop ins are looser than I care to run. If I am re-plating it is a short cost jump to a big bore and the pistons cost the same.

See less See more

Reactions: 5

Rex Coil 7

· #8 · Nov 29, 2019

... valuable wisdom that probably took you quite a while to obtain, Master Ducvet !! Clearly decades of experience going on there .... rather than five years of experience repeated ten times over.

belter

· #9 · Nov 29, 2019

pankl is the parent company of cp/carrillo i found out this morning.

Reactions: 1

xracer

· #10 · Nov 30, 2019

More skirt, less rocking. Less skirt, more rocking. Applies to girls as well?

Reactions: 3

Ohm3d

Discussion Starter · #11 · Nov 30, 2019

Here is what I was looking at. they dont look to have the moly coating on the skirts.. must be the "old" design Fast By Ferracci - Pistons

loony888

· #12 · Dec 1, 2019

I have just removed a set of FBF WIseco's from my 888, they're scored up on the skirts but not because there's anything wrong with them, i overheated my bike and this was the result. As the 888 has a 94mm bore it's the same as a 916, but the pin/deck height is different, think the gudgeon pin is too??? not sure...

Anyway, they're NLA from Ferracci and they are REALLY scarce, when i did the build originally i missed out on a set of Omega's and at that time the FBF Wiseco were the only option. I managed to source a set of Pistal Racing pistons from WRC in italy and they are sexy! short skirt, moly coated two ring design and just amazing quality, they make the Wisecos look like they're out of a 50 year old mini by comparison. But, Ducvet is right, the WIsecos would have (if i didn't foolishly overheat the thing) lasted the life of the bike, never given it a second thought again, they were similar in design to the originals but higher static compression.
These Pistals are very light, very short and i imagine they will be perfect in a race application, really, it's a good thing it's not my daily!

If it's a road bike, i'd have no problem using Wiseco, the FBF ones that i used did the job just fine
If it's a pure race bike, Pistal, they're as focussed as a race part gets, so sexy though.
If you're selling it and don't care buy what's cheapest, probably JE.....

See less See more

Reactions: 1

loony888

· #13 · Dec 1, 2019

ducvet said:
Case in point, two pistons below. Both 94mm pistals, Both sold by same seller but designed/built by pistal at different times. Newer design is more modern than the earlier piston but both are doing the same job.

View attachment 977109 View attachment 977110

Would you reckon that's just an evolution of design taking advantage of better manufacturing and equipment which allows for a better product?
A bit like exhaust systems they used to have a certain look to work the way they were intended but then hydroforming was developed and they almost overnight drastically changed how the finished product looked with a boost in performance purely from the development of manufacturing technology.

loony888

· #14 · Dec 1, 2019

Ohm3d said:
I am wanting to install some 94mm high compression pistons (11.5 or 12:1) in my S2R1000. Motor is a ds1000 with 20,000 miles on it. I have been trying to find info on people who have actually done this. I have 2 buddies who have used the Wiseco pistons (FBF) with seemingly little issue. The 3 local shops that do Ducati work said they wont touch Wiseco pistons, and recommended Pistals. I know JE made pistons along the way, but cant find any info on them. Pistals are easily double the price of Wiseco. Wiseco have been around a long time, and guys use their pistons in cars, sleds, dirtbikes, so why do they have such a variable reputation in the Ducati world? With the money differential, I was going to add a few supporting mods like a light flywheel, DP ecu flash, light light head work.

E-pinions please

There's a lot of Ducati "snobs" who love their brand names and just have to have the latest greatest brand used on their bike that is advertised on a race bike.
There's also some mechanics/engine builders who just have their favourite brands too, sometimes it's because they have a good relationship with the supplier and there's no agro when they ask for what they want, sometimes it's due to a good price and they make nice margin. A lot of it has to do with the returns they get, the less customers complain about their engine build the more the builder likes what they have installed in it, which is all fair enough.

Bottom line is that there will often be an unknown reason someone will have their favourites, do your research and decide what you want to do with it and choose what works best for you, that's a luxury, sometimes you only have one option and have to take what you can get......

Reactions: 1

belter

· #15 · Dec 1, 2019

Ohm3d said:
Here is what I was looking at. they dont look to have the moly coating on the skirts.. must be the "old" design Fast By Ferracci - Pistons

you can get the skirts coated easy enough, but at $500 they're almost the same price as pistals? have to be close.

the ferracci pistons always were that sort of money, then one day the website had a big sale where the advertised price went up 100% and the sale price was the usual price. special.

Reactions: 1

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.