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Bobaganoosh
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I have spent all morning going through past posts on paint. A lot of the posts covered the mythical "Ducati Red". I didn't find much on the process for the DIY guys. I know we have some painters here and guys that are DIY. Looking for some tips and tricks.

I will be repainting a 749 Dark to 999 Gloss Black. A coworker is an experienced painter and will be my wing man. Though he has never painted motorcycle plastics. Here is his advice so far: (curious if the guys here agree)

-Scuff factory Dark paint with 1000 or 1500, black shows sanding marks easier than other colors.
-I know the reds, yellows and dark are primed white, what is the black primed? He said white will give you a brighter black, dark or black primer will give the darkest, richest black.
-From my explanation of the fairings flex, he said a flex agent would not be necessary.
-The only code I found for Black was the HM, PPG 248.514, this correct? Avoiding color rite based on expense!
-Keep base and clear of the same brand and type
-LA paint shops are getting rid of Chemical based paints and going water based, is this just LA, CA or nationwide?

I will be painting this at work in a 32' shipping container as a improvised spray booth. So that part is covered. Any other suggestions and tips would be appreciated.
 

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You're venting the container, right? You're going to need lots of lighting in there and some way to fan the overspray out. Every DIYer is different and has different materials on hand. Most of them find that once they start buying everything they need to do the job right it's less or about the same to have a pro do it. I'm guessing you've already considered that. If this is your first time clearcoating I'd let your buddy do it and tell him to pay attention to the curves and avoid overlapping too much. A lot of car painters I've seen overcompensate too much and get runs everywhere on bike fairings.

I've never heard of "bright" blacks with white bases or primers. Sounds like inadequate coverage then. Some brands cover better than others with fewer coats. You're just doing straight black, I wouldn't worry too much about color codes if you're doing all of the parts. Just get a good black like HOK BC25 or PPG DBC9700 or whatever brand you're looking at... As far as going green, there are about 550 shops in CA using waterborne bases but that doesn't apply to clearcoats and you don't need to concern yourself about that. It's not a law. Yet... If there is a bodyshop nearby you know of that is going green they may be getting rid of some of their other stuff but they'll probably just use their existing stock up first. Changes need to be made to booth setups in shops with high volume but nothing that would prohibit their using up their solvent-based paints. Clearcoats are still solvent-based after all... A quart is plenty for the whole bike. You'll get a quart and a half of HOK after reducing and 2 quarts out of reduced PPG. Every paint is different though.

I don't know how clean the shipping container is but the ones I've seen are dirty as hell and dust floating everywhere. Be aware of that... Black will show every imperfection in the paint.
 

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Q:I will be repainting a 749 Dark to 999 Gloss Black. A coworker is an experienced painter and will be my wing man. Though he has never painted motorcycle plastics. Here is his advice so far: (curious if the guys here agree)
A: NO
Q:-Scuff factory Dark paint with 1000 or 1500, black shows sanding marks easier than other colors.
A: NO. Sand with 400 or 600 at minimum. The 749 dark is Flat finish or Mettalic Black? You want to get the best tooth on there for the paint to hold on to.
Q:-I know the reds, yellows and dark are primed white, what is the black primed? He said white will give you a brighter black, dark or black primer will give the darkest, richest black.
A: Use a Black primer sealer ( I use House of Kolor KO-Seal on everything I do). This will seal any thing from reacting to your new paint and promote adhesion.
Q: -From my explanation of the fairings flex, he said a flex agent would not be necessary.
A: True. Unless it's a car bumber then flex is not mandatory
Q: -The only code I found for Black was the HM, PPG 248.514, this correct?
A: Use House of Kolor BC25 for the Blackest Black possible, screw codes!Q & A: Avoiding color rite based on expense!
Q & A: -Keep base and clear of the same brand and type Most Urethane clears are compatible with any basecoat system, but it's just a safer route to take by staying within a particular system
Q: -LA paint shops are getting rid of Chemical based paints and going water based, is this just LA, CA or nationwide?
A: It's a movement that I believe was started in CA, but it is taking over most everywhere. Water borne is actually an improvement rather than just a replacement, as it makes it a little less restrictive to be a painter.
 

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To keep air born dust down, wet down the container floor before you spray.
 

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I agree with most everything, but the waterbourne being better.... The only thing it is better for is the enviroment, but since you are not riding an electric motorcycle, I assume you don't care so much about that...

Waterbourne is relatively new in the automotive paint industry, they have been threataning change for as long as I have been a painter 25 + years, But it has been to difficult to develope a comparable product to solvent based paints, so the mandated changes are very limited to large city's Like LA... Most everyone else is free to use Solvent based paints.... I should add that only the base coats are water based.... The Clear Coats are still ALL Solvent Based, as No One has been able to develope a comparable product.... I do many jobs for people in the So-Cal area & a common theme I hear from them is that there are No Good Painters in LA.... I think it is more like, There are good painters, But they are forced to use Shitty paints...

Any shop using waterbourne, would jump at the chance, if givin, to switch back to a solvent based system.... I have been trained (went to Dupont school) in both waterbourne & solvent based systems, while the Waterbourne has some nice aspects,(mainly, it won't kill you as quickly), it takes 3 times longer to do anything & in the fast pased body shop repair industry, 3 times as long is NO GOOD!!!! Also, it is Unprovan in real world applications, we will not know the durability for at least 10 years.....We had the same teething period when we switched from Laquer to Enamel, Enamel to Urethane, Uretane to Base Coat Clear Coat Ureathane & invetibaly BCCC Urethane to Water Bourne Base Coats.... It took time to get them right.... Unfornatley you don't know something is wrong till you have a failure...


While House of Kolor is a standard for many custom painters, I use their bases & clears very little, as I don't think they are that Great, I have had the colors fade on me & the clears check & crack.... A good automotive paint Like Dupont or PPG is all you need for your application.... The Ducati Niro Black on the 999 is a very simple formula that contains only 1 toner, with Dupont it is 805j Black.....

Sand with 600 or 800 wet or 320-400 dry with solid colors like black you can get away with the 320 dry, but don't try this with a metalic color....600 to 800 wet only on metalics, I use 800 wet for metalics & 320 dry for all solid colors....

Sealer is not manditory, but it dose leave a nice foundation to start with, I suggest letting it dry tack free, then slightly nibbing off the dust specs with 1500 dry before adding base coat, but I am ultra anal about my paint work, may not be for you...

You asked!!!


Don't use a single stage paint system, always use a Base Coat Clear Coat, it will be easier to control....
 

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One question that I've also never found a good answer to... where can you buy PPG paint? There's no place local to me that carries PPG automotive lines, and the couple of places online that I've found who do carry it haven't been able to match the Ducati paint codes.
 

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+1 for what Painterdude said...especially about House of Kolor, there are tons of cheaper and much better paints out there.

I love using Sherwin Williams/Martin Senours new clear coat that is wet sandable and ready to buff in 15 minutes. Tough as nails and you are much less likely to get crud trapped in it because there is no time for it to get into it lol. Make sure you work quick spraying the clear and clean your gun out RIGHT away though...or bad stuff happens.

As far as primer colors and sealer colors. I like using black primer and black sealer when i'm spraying a black or a really dark color. The upside is if you ever get chips or scratches down to the primer, they aren't as noticeable. The downside is that when you are spraying black basecoat on top of a black primer or sealer...it's hard to see where you've already sprayed. This is where having good lighting comes in really handy.

Oh and make sure your bodywork is absolutely freaken flawless or that new shiny black paint job is going to show EVERYTHING.

EDIT: oh yeah...and your painter friend that said to sand with 1000-1500 grit before priming...egad. You'll get god awful adhesion doing it that way. Follow Painterdude's sanding recommendation. If you were going to directly topcoat the current panels WITHOUT priming you could scuff them with those kind of grits or a scotchbrite pad and scuffing gel...but then you do run the risk of lifting and other weird stuff...

Anywhere you get down to bare plastic by mistake when you are scuffing the panels down, you want to prime those areas at the least...then seal the whole panel. Primer and Sealer are two DIFFERENT steps.
 

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I'm going to be doing some painting this winter myself. I found a local autobody supply shop that knew what to do with the PPG Code (yellow) from my manual. I'm probably going to prep it and have a shop shoot it.

My only concern is that I have no desire to do the whole bike. I need to do the nose and the left side upper/lower. I just hope that it really matches up.
 

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Yellow is tricky...if your other panels are even slightly faded, the new yellow will match what they would have been brand new...but not always what they look like now. It might not be a noticeable difference...oh and keep in mind there are different levels of every manufacturers paint.

Value line basecoats are "primarily meant for overall refinishing" to quote from both PPG and Sherwin's products. Their high end stuff is much more likely to match better. You do get what you pay for with paint otherwise every body shop would use the cheap stuff and not bother with the high end basecoats. But then again, especially in the automotive world, panel painting is very rare...the odds of painting a fender and just plopping it on a car and it matching perfectly aren't great, most shops will blend into the hood,bumper and door. But then again you are doing much larger panels then and it's much more noticeable if the match is off. For bikes it's usually not as noticeable unless the color is WAY off. For automotive colors they even have alternates of colors that can be better matches and you use other paint chips to match it up. Some factory colors can have as many as 15 alternates that can be as different as night and day but all the same paint code.
 

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A shop I talked to that uses Sherwin Williams had a similar story. What he said was that there was no direct cross reference to the PPG code for his system. His method would be to blend it by hand. When I showed him the panel his thought was that there was a lot of phosphorus additive, while not a pigment, it drasticly effects what the eye sees. He said that additive is what makes the paint ridiculously expensive and gives it the glowing look. He advised getting the PPG. The price I got was $105/qt.
 

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A shop I talked to that uses Sherwin Williams had a similar story. What he said was that there was no direct cross reference to the PPG code for his system. His method would be to blend it by hand. When I showed him the panel his thought was that there was a lot of phosphorus additive, while not a pigment, it drasticly effects what the eye sees. He said that additive is what makes the paint ridiculously expensive and gives it the glowing look. He advised getting the PPG. The price I got was $105/qt.
About 4 years ago I referred a friend over to another friend's body shop in order to do some repaint on his red 748. He had the fairing repaired at Sacto Bumper, I've had repairs done there 3 or 4 times, they do great work BTW. Anyway, my painter friend uses Sherwin Williams and I recall the paint store he does business with didn't have crossover for PPG so they used a couple of methods in an effort to secure a match. I'm sure one was a computer. The result wasn't quite a match, very subtle on his bike, but on my custom painted fender, it was clear to me the Sherwin Williams paint didn't match. I could detect an orange tint to it. I remember him telling me the paint store was having difficulty finding a match, took them a couple weeks to come up with something "close".

Maybe by now things are different. I didn't bring in panels from my crashed 916 to him after the above experience, I took them to a different painter. I don't know the status of Sherwin Williams at this time because I didn't ride for over 2 years + because of another crash.
 

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I don't know about the paint costs but around here PPG is more expensive than HOK. When I'm doing graphic work I prefer the HOK bases because once they're dry they're the easiest to work with and the black works better than the PPG as far as I've used it. It covers quicker but it's also reduced less. I over-reduce for certain applications. I use PPG for everything else including factory matches and my only gripe with it aside from the cost is a lot of the colors don't take to taping that well and leave marks in the base. Especially with silvers...although HOK will do the same thing if it doesn't dry enough. Aside from DuPont every once in a while for certain projects I don't really use anything else. I tried Omni but I've never liked it. Plus it smells funny...lol I actually use HOK clears pretty seldom because they're a bit more expensive and take longer to cure. For show bikes I follow different steps but most people are on a budget around here, even the chopper builders. The biggest thing is that they want it done NOW. I just picked up a bagger yesterday with twelve pieces and they want a complicated mirrored tribal on the bike and it has to be done by tomorrow. :( Yeah, I'm procrastinating, was up all night repairing various pieces and doing body to cheap, shitty fiberglass fenders and bags.

Interestingly, I went to a seminar recently on waterborne paints and they were talking about how it's "faster" than using solvent-based paints. The only thing I liked about the seminar was that all the paint reps were saying you can get coverage of your base colors in two coats. A lot of bases are so thin and you need several coats. But then there's so much Mickey Mouse involved like adding turbulent air flow for drying, waste disposal, etc. You're basically running two systems and I want all the stuff in and out. When a guy drops his car off Friday night and wants to pick it up Saturday morning we don't want to devote extra time to extra steps.

Yeah, don't use a single-stage. At least you haven't come on here going on about how you're going to use "high quality" rattle-can paints to get your finish and then talk about how it's equal to what you can get using base/clear at a shop. I've seen so many of those on other forums and they're always good for a laugh. I've seen some of those bikes in person and I'm sure the owners are happy with them but they don't even come close to what you can do with the right equipment and materials.
 

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The brand of paint doesn't have anything to do with the paint match it's the person mixing it...so I wouldn't bring it to that person again to have them try and match something either. But it has absolutely nothing to do with what brand he was using.
 

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The brand of paint doesn't have anything to do with the paint match it's the person mixing it...so I wouldn't bring it to that person again to have them try and match something either. But it has absolutely nothing to do with what brand he was using.
Pay now or pay later. If the paint guy has to mix it is going to reflect in his price. Seems to me if you could get it from PPG without any complications it is worth what they are asking.
 

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If we're still talking about the black paint I was just talking in general. If the whole bike is being painted it doesn't really matter, black is black for the most part unless you absolutely have to have the exact color.

For color matching I use the PPG variance sheets and go with that. Sometimes they have to be custom-mixed and my guy does great with that considering I often bring him projects from bikes that span all the way back to the 1920s. You can't put all your stock into a paint code. One example is I do a lot of work with Harley stuff and even used to work for them. In 2007 there was a blue metallic color and when I got the paint code I had my distributor mix me up a batch so I could do a set of larger saddle bags and a fender. They didn't match AT ALL. Too much purple in the mix. So I had them redo it with the same results. Then I had a different shop do it with the same code and it came out fine. Same PPG paint, same code, different results. This was a bike that was less than a year old when I did it. Different factories handle a lot of the same parts. Two of them in Wisconsin painting the same parts and they had the same code but the paintjobs were not a match.

I like starting from scratch...:cool:
 

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I like starting from scratch...:cool:

+ A MILLION

I hate how people think that stupid scan gun (prophet or dominator) is the cure all for matching paints. I go by chips and tinting myself.
 

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No shit...lol How many times have you painted something, a car even, and the color didn't match? You did everything the way you were supposed to but still...so many variances! My brother works for a high-end bodyshop and they have issues with that every day. A small shop like mine, that eats into my bottom line so it sucks.
 

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TOP TIP for European members!!

The touch up paint "Opel Magma RED" is the same color as Ducati anniversary Red used on most Ducs.

My tank is painted with it straight from a large touch up spraycan. You can see it here and compare the color to the 1098 just behind my bike.
http://www.ducati.ms/gallery/files/8/0/2/6/dsc00135.jpg

//amullo
 

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TOP TIP for European members!!

The touch up paint "Opel Magma RED" is the same color as Ducati anniversary Red used on most Ducs.

My tank is painted with it straight from a large touch up spraycan. You can see it here and compare the color to the 1098 just behind my bike.
http://www.ducati.ms/gallery/files/8/0/2/6/dsc00135.jpg

//amullo
that's pretty close considering it's touch-up, albeit a bit on the yellow side. What's even cooler is the tire warmer that looks like a jacket, made that yourself did you???:D
 

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All blacks are definitely not the same. Black is actually hard to match, many of them have varying degrees of blue in them. I work for a Ferrari dealership with an factory authorized bodyshop, and some paints have 10-12 different formulations for what is supposed to be the same color, and when they spray test panels they all look slightly different.







If we're still talking about the black paint I was just talking in general. If the whole bike is being painted it doesn't really matter, black is black for the most part unless you absolutely have to have the exact color.

For color matching I use the PPG variance sheets and go with that. Sometimes they have to be custom-mixed and my guy does great with that considering I often bring him projects from bikes that span all the way back to the 1920s. You can't put all your stock into a paint code. One example is I do a lot of work with Harley stuff and even used to work for them. In 2007 there was a blue metallic color and when I got the paint code I had my distributor mix me up a batch so I could do a set of larger saddle bags and a fender. They didn't match AT ALL. Too much purple in the mix. So I had them redo it with the same results. Then I had a different shop do it with the same code and it came out fine. Same PPG paint, same code, different results. This was a bike that was less than a year old when I did it. Different factories handle a lot of the same parts. Two of them in Wisconsin painting the same parts and they had the same code but the paintjobs were not a match.

I like starting from scratch...:cool:
 
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