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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So with the new hyper, the monster is now the only remaining air cooled Ducati in the line up. That'll probably change next year... What are people's thoughts on this? I know it's the way it's going... Looks like dry clutches are almost gone too...
 

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Bon Vivant
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Personally, I've never understood what all the fuss about air cooled really is...

The water cooled bikes run better, have more power, better torque, rev higher, and smoother.

Yep there's a radiator on there but they've never given me much to worry about. I've owned both and I loved my Monster but I like the way the water cooled engine works even better...

Dry clutch is cool, very vintage race, and I'm glad I have a few bikes with it but again I don't see a huge advantage besides quick pain-free service

The thing is, Ducati seems to be the last real hotrod kinda bike, wicked lumpy cams that you can actually feel, the dry clutch from the racing days, a frame built like a megabuck racecar, and torque that'll rip your arms off.
I do think Ducatis are a breed of their own and I love the non-synthetic, non-processed style and rawness of them.
I don't think the air-cooled bikes themselves are representative of the Ducati style but in general I hate to see Ducati becoming watered down and generic feeling.

So far the bikes I have don't show any signs of loosing that ducati feeling but I think we could be headed that direction.
 

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Tougher emissions laws are driving every street bike to the ways of water cooling. I'm afraid that Ducati probably could not change it even if they wanted to. Being able to maintain a constant engine temperature range allows for better fuel control, less emissions and better fuel economy. That is a proven point.
 

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Its a shame but it looks like the old style Ducatis are the last of a dyeing breed. its the simplicity if the old air cooled, dry clutch desmo valve system i enjoy about owing a Ducati.... its as my dad would put it. there like owning a 55 chevy. the sound and rumble

If I wanted the fastest bike out there Id probley buy a R1 or defiantly a Jap bike.

as Casey Stoner said, its a shame the direction high performance motorcycles are going.

Shame on you Ducati
 

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i agree with all that has been said thus far, but is there any thought as to how much the "horsepower race" has to do with the move to water cooled engines? :confused:

personally? i wish that Ducati still had some air cooled motors left in their lineup besides that of the one found in the Monster.
 

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better fuel economy.
my 2011 HM EVO SP gets about 33mpg with or without aftermarket EFI control.

my 2010 custom air cooled 944 with 41 mm FCR flatsides gets 44mpg

figure that one out.
 

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i agree with all that has been said thus far, but is there any thought as to how much the "horsepower race" has to do with the move to water cooled engines? :confused:

personally? i wish that Ducati still had some air cooled motors left in their lineup besides that of the one found in the Monster.
Quite simply horsepower = heat but hot engines do not run efficiently for a variety of reasons. For a start, a bike has to be able to disperse heat while stationary in traffic. You can run a high power high heat engine with a radiator and fan all day. If you make parts smaller and lighter you also need to be able to transfer the heat from them quicker, a water jacket will do that better than fins. Bikes with water jackets run quieter and that is more of an issue these days. The cooler the cylinder the cooler the air entering so the more dense the air and the higher the compression ratio. this is why turbos have intercoolers to cool the air as it enters the cylinders having been already heated in the turbo. Basically the cooler your engine runs, the higher the compression ratio you can run before you get pre ignition detonation ( knocking).:)
 

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I don't get how harley can do it then...unless theyre plan is to only make vrods...

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I don't get how harley can do it then...unless theyre plan is to only make vrods...

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Harley dont do it. Their 1340 evo engine was putting out 55bhp or 38bhp per 1000cc. The new Ducati 1199 Panigale is putting out 195bhp or four times the power of a Harley per 1000cc.
If Ducati made 38bhp engines i'm sure they would be air-cooled :)
 

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I will miss the air cooled engines once they are eliminated. That is why I will always have one or two in my stable.

That being said the logic to move away from the limitations an air-cooled engine make complete engineering sense. Many of the points have already been explained here. Another reason in my opinion is the cost required to develop an air-cooled engine that would overcome these issues. This coupled with the HP race that customers base their bike purchases on these days. In addition an air-cooled bike is simpler mechanically and potentially lighter.

I would have to say the vast majority of the customers purchasing the water cooled bikes have not the ability or safe/legal place to use it. I used to instruct track days with my 75 HP Monster and trust me it had plenty of power to do the job. We need to increase the realistic expectations that riders can expect from their bikes. I would argue that an attractive, excellent handling, reliable bike with a reasonable amount of HP (70-90 HP & 50-70 ft-lb of torque) is a perfect bike for 95% of the sportrider's out there.

I would like to challenge Ducati to provide this....again (the original SS was this in it's day). I think they would find a line queued up for a bike like that. Couple this with a club racing series based on this model and you would have a very loyal following.

Just the thoughts of a Ducati air-cooled enthusiast.
 

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This coupled with the HP race that customers base their bike purchases on these days. In addition an air-cooled bike is simpler mechanically and potentially lighter.

I would have to say the vast majority of the customers purchasing the water cooled bikes have not the ability or safe/legal place to use it. I used to instruct track days with my 75 HP Monster and trust me it had plenty of power to do the job. We need to increase the realistic expectations that riders can expect from their bikes. I would argue that an attractive, excellent handling, reliable bike with a reasonable amount of HP (70-90 HP & 50-70 ft-lb of torque) is a perfect bike for 95% of the sportrider's out there.

Just the thoughts of a Ducati air-cooled enthusiast.
Thank you for indirectly reponding to the question I raised. Why a water cooled engine is better able to meet stricter emissions standards is easily understood, I'm in the camp that it's not all about that, and more about the "horsepower race" that I mentioned earlier, the post above validates that thought as well.

Hell, even the 110hp BMW GS (one of the most refined bikes out there and with a 30yr history) is moving to a water cooled power plant.....why? because of emissions standards? :think: Uh, no, I don't think so.

Ever heard of an upright bike called a Multistrada that the other manufacturers are quickly trying to catch? ;)
 

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Bon Vivant
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I don't know how people figure this:

the vast majority of the customers purchasing the water cooled bikes have not the ability or safe/legal place to use it.
I don't ride my multi on the track (but I do ride the SF and 1098R on the track) and I'm no racer, I can't push my bikes to their limit.
But I use, feel, understand, and appreciate every ounce of power and performance from the beasts that I own.
A 95 HP bike would just be boring. I'd quit riding if I had to ride an anemic air cooled 750...
 

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Horsepower race is some of it. Emissions regs. in Europe and USA are some of it as well. However, AIR-COOLED BIKES ARE NOT DEAD!

Ural, Guzzi V7, Honda CB1000, Triumph (Bonnie, Thruxton), Norton 916 are all air-cooled and will be on sale in the USA in 2013 and all air-cooled. Harley will be for a while as well.

If Harley could lose the weight, I have to believe they could beat the EPA regs. and stay air-cooled. BMW and Ducati surely could if they would stop listening to market studies. But, HP sells so what are we to do?
 

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I don't ride my multi on the track (but I do ride the SF and 1098R on the track) and I'm no racer, I can't push my bikes to their limit.
But I use, feel, understand, and appreciate every ounce of power and performance from the beasts that I own.
A 95 HP bike would just be boring. I'd quit riding if I had to ride an anemic air cooled 750...
Yeah OK. I doubt VERY highly you use every ounce of the power and performance of your SF & 1098R. Maybe in a straight line.... I wouldn't even make that statement about my 75 HP street bike & 90 HP race bike. I don't know your abilities, you could be the next Casey Stoner for all I know. Do remember he learned to ride like that on bikes FAR lower than 90 HP.

Seriously I have nothing against the water cooled bikes. I just know the reality. Trust me I seriously know a few guys who would crush you on 90's EX500's with stock engines, no kidding. Of course not in a straight line....

What I am trying to say is that riding the wheels off a bike at "sporting" speeds on the street & track days requires no more then that power level. In fact it will teach you the skills required to go faster, smoother and in control... i.e. smile generator!

Have you ever tried riding a bike setup well in that power level in anger? You might find it is a real hoot.

Ok this is off topic. A modern air-cooled bike is more than capable of attaining the performance & emission levels required. In fact the styling options are greater as loosing a bunch of water hoses and a radiator cleans up (also lightens) the engine. Anything allowing more styling while retaining good handling, good ride-ability, decent power & reliability is good as far as I'm concerned,
 

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I bought a Ducati because I wanted an air cooled bike that had balls. I prefer rawness over refinement. I don't like the way Ducati is going with their line. I unnderstand r&d and what it does for advancement in the marketplace, but the new bikes don't have soul. The new generation of young ducati riders are really going to miss out on what Ducati was originally built upon and attracted riders to in the first place.


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Flyn Bulldog...

"A 95 HP bike would just be boring. I'd quit riding if I had to ride an anemic air cooled 750..."

Looking down your list of bikes that just about covers most of them:)

10 Streetfighter S
04 HRC CB50R
89 GB500
77 KZ1000A
73 Duc GT750
74 Duc 750 sport special
66 Duc 250 NC racer
65 Norton Atlas cafe'

If you could get bored on a 78 900SS at full chat maybe its time to hang up your boots :) and i think you mean asthmatic not enemic :)
 

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Flyn Bulldog...

"A 95 HP bike would just be boring. I'd quit riding if I had to ride an anemic air cooled 750..."

Looking down your list of bikes that just about covers most of them:)

10 Streetfighter S
04 HRC CB50R
89 GB500
77 KZ1000A
73 Duc GT750
74 Duc 750 sport special
66 Duc 250 NC racer
65 Norton Atlas cafe'

If you could get bored on a 78 900SS at full chat maybe its time to hang up your boots :) and i think you mean asthmatic not enemic :)
Paddy, you might want to erase the F1098S from the list ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
thanks for the replies guys, very good points. I just feel like it's not all about super high performance and hp numbers. The character and the quintessential ducati specific traits, design, and heritage combined, to me - feel like they make up that x factor that makes a ducati different from anything else. I feel like I'm getting to be one of those old guys that yells at kids "get off my damn lawn!" about the direction the new bikes are going, in particular, with the brands I love.

my 58hp scrambler is a frickin' hoooot with the arrow 2-1 exhaust and knobbies! :D I wouldn't give up the monster though.

A few friends have said they'd take an old airhead GS over a current/newer one. Simple, easy to work on yourself and very durable...
 

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A water cooled engine is probably better in every measureable way.
So why am I so satisfied with my Monster.
 

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Bon Vivant
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Flyn Bulldog...

"A 95 HP bike would just be boring. I'd quit riding if I had to ride an anemic air cooled 750..."

Looking down your list of bikes that just about covers most of them:)

10 Streetfighter S
04 HRC CB50R
89 GB500
77 KZ1000A
73 Duc GT750
74 Duc 750 sport special
66 Duc 250 NC racer
65 Norton Atlas cafe'

If you could get bored on a 78 900SS at full chat maybe its time to hang up your boots :) and i think you mean asthmatic not enemic :)
oh ok, you got that right, and I do enjoy riding those bikes - but luckily I'm not stuck only riding those bikes - I can ride something with adrenalin pumping freak power when I have the urge.

But don't you get it? if you didn't have the power of the SF or 1098, even if it's only used for a short injection of rush serum, you don't get the benefit.

Yep you can ride a low power bike on the track and have a lot of fun. But you can only have the fun of freak power if you have it.

I completely disagree with the premise that there's such a thing as too much power.

And no, I meant to type "Anemic"

a : lacking force, vitality, or spirit <an anemic rendition of the song> <anemic efforts at enforcement>
b : lacking interest or savor : insipid <anemic wines>
c : lacking in substance or quantity <anemic returns on an investment> <anemic attendance> [/I]
as in Air cooled Ducatis...

I doubt VERY highly you use every ounce of the power and performance of your SF & 1098R.
I didn't say that I rode them at top speed - I don't, and that's my point. I don't have to ride them at top speed to get the rush I desire, I only need to twist the throttle until I'm satiated.
And in that instance I use every once of power the bike has and I don't even have to be going 80MPH.

I'm not sure how you figure power but it isn't just at the top end - its there from the bottom to the top...
 
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