Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum banner

21 - 36 of 36 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,793 Posts
But aren't the adjustments by the O2 sensors made by the ECU, not the O2 sensors themselves?
Yes the ecu just deals with the data from the sensors. As far as I know (and I clearly do not know everything) the O2 sensors on the bike work essentially as a on off switch. The sensor reads and sends a voltage that the ecu interprets as a CO value, then the ECU takes that value and looks up what the program wants the value to be. If it is out of the range desired by the programmer it adds or removes fuel until it see's the value. This is how the aftermarket O2 sensors work IIRC they take the sensors value output and lie to the ECU so it thinks the bike is leaner than it is. The narrow range may be by design because too rich might (no idea) damage an existing catalytic converter where a de-cated bike should not be harmed.


couldn't the ECU just be reprogramed to adjust the CO to higher levels like you say by a tuner that flashes the ECU?
I am not a programmer so I can not tell you why not but I would think that would be the best scenario. Rapidbike accesses and probably tricks the O2 sensors giving you control through a steal the information and lie to the ecu plan but gives more flexibility as well as keeping the O2 sensors helps the bike maintain a good air fuel ratio. In theory.. sorry my inner skeptic waiting for more long term results. I like proof more than testimonials.

A narrow band sensor is what you have on the bike and it works more like the on/off switch. A wide band will read much more accurately and faster so you get better results. This is what a dyno uses. I am not sure if it is cost reasons we do not get wide band sensors on the bikes or durability. My dyno goes through 1-2 sensors a year and if I run race gas/aviation fuel that drops to a couple hundred runs. If that were a street bike you would NOT like the added costs.

In a perfect world the O2 sensors would be running (wide band probably) and the ecu would be able to be set for what ever CO values you want. The ecu could then self map and you truly could auto map for what ever you want.
lean for mileage or to be kind to mother Gaia.
Rich for power and a smooth running bike
In between for the person who wants it all but cannot decide between morality and selfish pleasures.

I am not sure why this is not available (still not a programmer) but there are probably many reasons, the largest one being Governments do not care if your bike runs good only that the loudest voices make sure it does not pollute. What you get from the factories (all of them) will never be the best they can build it is more the best compromise they can build. Some times they get it right and others they focus too much on areas that they think you care more about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
I talked to local dyno tuner today, Nate at 2 Wheel DynoWorks in Kirkland, WA. He was very helpful and confirmed what I had suspected. That the Ducati "Race" ECU is 99% the best mapping you can get. This is a guy who tunes these things for a living on a dyno and says he has personally owned 2 of them. He says usually if they have the factory race ECU there is little they can do to improve it.

He says he can richen the from the 14:1 range to 13:1 but that does very little to improve performance. It might improve very slightly in low RPM but none at higher RPM. But the key thing he told me is the engine is just not designed or capable of low RPM smoothness or power any more than I am already getting. The Testastretta 11 is a mid and high rang power maker. At low RPM the engine does not draw enough air effectively. This is not a slight on the engine, it is just a characteristic and why it likes to run so well in the higher range above 3-4K RPM. This confirms that adding a few teeth in the rear sprocket is the best way (at least for me because I already have full Termi) to give better low speed performance by running at slightly higher RPM.

Also he says little to none can be done about slight popping on deceleration. He says this is this is normal with decat and if it is minor that is as good as it can get. Asked why so many people talk about tuning these bikes, he says it is because they don't want to spend the money to get the full system with the race ECU and that you cannot improve on that setup.

He also says Tuneboy is a difficult program that he does not want to use as a dyno tuner. Still I want to be able to do service resets, so now I guess I'll be looking at Tuneboy and Rexxer as only for their ability to do that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
Yes you can improve (or more apropriatly adjust to suit your bike) the 'Race' DP ecu.

On mine I have a setup to log AFR along with ecu values. Mine has 2 wide band lambda sensors for recording, not to adjust as I go (that is turned off in my ecu as it's a to course). This shows me where I'm rich or lean and I tweak and rewrite a new map.

Not that you need to go to that extent but just go from feel, a few test rides.

Yours will be lean from 3.2(closed) - 8.0 TPS and 1400 - 3200 rpm area.

That area of the 'Race' DP ecu map that's not quite right for you can be adjusted. And it's possible to DIY.

The DP ecu is only somewhere near and not an optimum.

Mine doesn't snatch low down or pop on decel. It would if I used the DP map on it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Will a PCV work in place of the Upmap key/USB? The reason I ask is I am looking to buy a 15 MTS with full Termi that the guy put a PCV on. I asked him why and he said he bought the full termi, but did not come with the Upmap.

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
582 Posts
2010 valves check is 15000 mi.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I am not familiar with that system exactly but as no one really races a multistrada it is a hop up map as Nokfir2 said. Many of the performance ecu's keep the O2 sensors as well and this often is where the bikes are still lean after the new ecu is added.

Popping on decel is a lean condition as you are telling the ecu that the throttle is closed but you are still at a high rpm and forcing air into the motor due to speed as opposed to setting idling. If a dyno tuner has access to this part of the map they often will richen it so the popping is reduced. Racers don't care. Though backfires will blow exhaust packing out faster than normal.

Under 3500rpms you are on the O2 sensor portion of the map and the bike is likely lean here. If it can be richened then it will get better but that may be a big if. If you have functioning O2 sensors they will likely take away any fuel you give it unless you trick them. If they have been turned off in the ecu then the map should have been modified to be richer in this area. Often these bikes are held to about .2-.3CO in this band and best driveability will be more like 3.0-5.0 CO so you can see it is quite lean. I would start by having someone read your air/fuel and/or CO to see how lean you are and where it changes.

A dyno would be good for this but a shop with a accurate CO meter will be able to read up to 3500 on the bench as well. I just mapped a Rapidbike for a monster 1100 and it was off a ton especially down low. Getting the readings will give you a idea what the next step should be.

Good luck.

Dear DucVet.

I have Multistrada 950 I put there rapid bike Evo with youtune controller and shift assist. My bike has full term exhaust with no cat and MWR filter
I am facing issues with sudden power drops at around 5,6 rpm - it happens only during moderate acceleration - if bike runs hard or light it does not happen...
Rapid bike team gave 6 different tests to be done - I did it and since last season they are not able to tell me what Is wrong.
It is so annoying that I am left alone as a customer that I am considering removing rapid unit and have my ecu reflashed by RexXer.
That Is why I would like to know what are pros an cons of reflashing compared to rapid unit.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,666 Posts
Dear DucVet.

I have Multistrada 950 I put there rapid bike Evo with youtune controller and shift assist. My bike has full term exhaust with no cat and MWR filter
I am facing issues with sudden power drops at around 5,6 rpm - it happens only during moderate acceleration - if bike runs hard or light it does not happen...
Rapid bike team gave 6 different tests to be done - I did it and since last season they are not able to tell me what Is wrong.
It is so annoying that I am left alone as a customer that I am considering removing rapid unit and have my ecu reflashed by RexXer.
That Is why I would like to know what are pros an cons of reflashing compared to rapid unit.
sounds like a map issue... the ecu switches to open loop at wot, but at part throttle uses the map. You should backup your current map and download a default map (for the termi if available) for the 950, shut off adaptive and see if it still displays the issue. Another option is to get the bypass plug and go back to stock to see if you still have the issue.

It sounds like the map is moving you to rich by a lot at the mid-throttle/mid rpm segments of the array... be REALLY careful if you're new to tuning, it's very easy to damage your motor if you go lean. If you're not sure of what you're doing I'd strongly recommend taking the bike to get dyno-tuned by someone with rapidbike experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
My 2010 MTS S Touring has the full Termignoni with the Mitsubishi racing ECU, full decat, and O2 removed. It does run good smooth and solid pulling my arms out all the way up to redline once above about 3500 rpm. However it pops on decelerations and has snatchiness in the low range below 3500 rpm. I'm sure fuel tuning could be better. Secondarily, I also am interested in a product that could reset service indicators.

So my question is 2 parts,

1) What is the difference with the Termignoni racing ECU besides the mapping and red light? Is the racing ECU the most optimim tuning option already? Can the racing ECU be remapped and has anyone done remapping or sensor intercept tweaks with their full Termignoni-Mitsubishi racing ECU setups?

2) If so what product is best that works with the Termignoni-Mitsubishi racing ECUs? Rexxer, Rapidbike, Tuneboy, UpMap, Power Commander, Booster Plug? Is Rexxer the only one that allows service resets?

I have very little experience with ECU tuning, but I've been trying to read up on it as much as possible. I do understand the basic issues like closed/open loop and the difference between methods that reprogram the map (Rexxer), and methods that intercept the stock map fueling and modify it through meddling with inputs like lambda, etc. My 2010 MTS is my first bike last year, and I also bought a 2014 KTM 690 Duke. With the Duke I had a lot of success with the Booster Plug that just fools the system to thinking the incoming air is 30 degrees cooler. BP and taller gearing helped a lot on that bike I've been riding through the winter and now getting ready to tune up my MTS for summer.
Hi, I just saw this post now and I realize my reply is a bit late but if you haven't received an adequate answer yet I can give you some information on this stuff.

I have a 2013 MTS which is in many respects very similar to your bike, and runs the same ECU.

I bought a tuneboy system about 5 months ago and started off with the tuning maps provided by tuneboy, which were better than stock but still had many flaws (in my opinion).

Over the last 4 months I have learned how to customize all the maps in the tuning set (9 maps related to fueling and another 6 maps related to throttle behaviour).

It took me months to learn how the maps interrelate, where the limits are, how to improve engine behaviour.

I have now finally arrived at a map set that I am very happy with. My bike is totally smooth down to 2000 rpm, and with careful throttle control even a little lower - I can roll along on slight uphill gradients in 6th gear at just below 2000 rpm with the engine still totally happy and smooth, and with careful throttle roll-on I can accelerate without any juddering or unwanted behavior. In first and second gear, down to 1500 rpm is fine.

Throttle is now much more usable - I found the default throttle behaviour a bit harsh especially at low rpm, 1st and 2nd gear. That is now much better, gentler throttle behaviour allowing far easier driving especially in dense traffic. The bike is an absolute pleasure to drive now. (I have changed the throttle mapping curve so that initially more throttle results in less response for the first 20% of throttle opening)

To achieve all of this I have had to customise and hand-craft every single map, cell by cell. The large maps are just short of 1,000 cells each, so this is a monster task, it has taken me over 100 hours so far.

If you haven't yet solved your problem, and you are prepared to purchase a tuneboy system (not very expensive) I am willing to send you my current maps and give you some guidance if you want to customize them further. There is little or no information available on how the maps work, I have had to figure it out through trial and error.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Sounds like a huge faff around. Wouldn't a custom tune and dyno set up be more cost effective and quicker?
A dyno can only really test for maximum power output. It can't do much for getting the engine to run the way you want it to, especially under part throttle and low rpm -
I guess you could in theory do that on a dyno, but (1) that is certainly not the way it is normally used so you would have to ask the dyno owner very nicely and (2) you would have to spend many, many hours on the dyno and that is sure to cost a bundle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Maybe there is someone who did similar task for rapid bike - I am still fighting very bad fuelling using rapid bike for my multistrada 950....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Maybe there is someone who did similar task for rapid bike - I am still fighting very bad fuelling using rapid bike for my multistrada 950....
Do you have access to and can you edit the fuel maps? If so I may be able to give you pointers, your bike will have similar characteristics to mine, it is essentially the same engine
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I can edit fuel maps - I appreciate your support. Thank you - maybe I will fix this jerkiness and sudden too rich mixture rapid is doing at around 5,5 rpm.
Moreover I have shift assistant and it works fine - but only with rapid unit:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
I can edit fuel maps - I appreciate your support. Thank you - maybe I will fix this jerkiness and sudden too rich mixture rapid is doing at around 5,5 rpm.
Moreover I have shift assistant and it works fine - but only with rapid unit:(
Just as a starting point, this is the main fuel map I have arrived at after many, many hours of experimentation.

The most tricky region was low throttle, low rpm (bottom left quadrant).

You will see that the idling portion of the map (very lowest rows, left 5 vertical lines) has to be significantly leaner than the section immediately to the right and above. The engine needs a lot more fuel once there is power demand, but for idling the fuel must be cut right down to avoid the engine running too rich and building up unspent fuel during prolonged idling.

In the lower throttle region (say bottom 8 or so lines) you will notice that the fuel supply leans out quite a bit as the revs rise, to the right. The engine is capable of running on a much leaner mixture at 4000 or 5000 rpm than at 2000 The "hump" towards the lower left peaks at roughly 2000 rpm

Note that this only depicts one map. The ECU uses several maps, depending on configuration :
For each cylinder :
main fuel map (depicted below)
low fuel map (I have disabled this in my set of maps, the L/F map is 100% over the entire range, disabling the L maps entirely)
Trim map (this uses a rougher adjustment, fewer cells) allowing % adjustments to the main map

To arrive at this map, I followed this basic strategy :
1. through successive trials, lean out the map until the engine does not want to run well any more. This gives you a lower limit. This takes a lot of time, working with very low throttle at steady speed on a level road you have to find the exact limit from about 1500rpm through to about 4500 rpm, then you can extrapolate much of the rest. Note that this has to be done with care - when the engine is running too lean it is possible to damage it if you run it for too long - the same, of course, is true if you run the engine way too rich.
2. Continually, and in small steps, increase the fuel in areas where you are testing at that time until the engine is totally happy at practical throttle settings
(so, for example, let's say I am focusing on cruise throttle at 3500 rpm - I find a level road, take the speed to 3500 rpm, cruise for a bit, rolll on throttle a bit, roll off throttle a bit, paying very careful attention to engine behavior. Having started from "too lean", I know that I only have to go "up" in small increments until the engine behavior is perfect for roll on and roll off, then I stop there. With very low rpm, say 1500rpm, I do the same but then I also test roll-on from steady speed on a slight uphill gradient. The engine should roll on smoothly in 1st and 2nd gear even from 1500rpm, then I know I have enough fuel. Too lean and it becomes snatchy even on a slight uphill)

3. Continue for wider and wider ranges of rpm and throttle until everything works well.

Note that this technique will not provide maximum power - my approach was that the engine delivers more than enough power, I am only interested in enjoying the ride.
F1 map.jpg
 
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
Top