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Discussion Starter #1
My 2010 MTS S Touring has the full Termignoni with the Mitsubishi racing ECU, full decat, and O2 removed. It does run good smooth and solid pulling my arms out all the way up to redline once above about 3500 rpm. However it pops on decelerations and has snatchiness in the low range below 3500 rpm. I'm sure fuel tuning could be better. Secondarily, I also am interested in a product that could reset service indicators.

So my question is 2 parts,

1) What is the difference with the Termignoni racing ECU besides the mapping and red light? Is the racing ECU the most optimim tuning option already? Can the racing ECU be remapped and has anyone done remapping or sensor intercept tweaks with their full Termignoni-Mitsubishi racing ECU setups?

2) If so what product is best that works with the Termignoni-Mitsubishi racing ECUs? Rexxer, Rapidbike, Tuneboy, UpMap, Power Commander, Booster Plug? Is Rexxer the only one that allows service resets?

I have very little experience with ECU tuning, but I've been trying to read up on it as much as possible. I do understand the basic issues like closed/open loop and the difference between methods that reprogram the map (Rexxer), and methods that intercept the stock map fueling and modify it through meddling with inputs like lambda, etc. My 2010 MTS is my first bike last year, and I also bought a 2014 KTM 690 Duke. With the Duke I had a lot of success with the Booster Plug that just fools the system to thinking the incoming air is 30 degrees cooler. BP and taller gearing helped a lot on that bike I've been riding through the winter and now getting ready to tune up my MTS for summer.
 

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I don’t know much about the other services you’re talking about to be honest. I am all about Rexxer. They have done an awesome job with my bike, and they have been super responsive in my experience.


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My 2010 MTS S Touring has the full Termignoni with the Mitsubishi racing ECU, full decat, and O2 removed. It does run good smooth and solid pulling my arms out all the way up to redline once above about 3500 rpm. However it pops on decelerations and has snatchiness in the low range below 3500 rpm. I'm sure fuel tuning could be better. Secondarily, I also am interested in a product that could reset service indicators.

So my question is 2 parts,

1) What is the difference with the Termignoni racing ECU besides the mapping and red light? Is the racing ECU the most optimim tuning option already? Can the racing ECU be remapped and has anyone done remapping or sensor intercept tweaks with their full Termignoni-Mitsubishi racing ECU setups?

2) If so what product is best that works with the Termignoni-Mitsubishi racing ECUs? Rexxer, Rapidbike, Tuneboy, UpMap, Power Commander, Booster Plug? Is Rexxer the only one that allows service resets?

I have very little experience with ECU tuning, but I've been trying to read up on it as much as possible. I do understand the basic issues like closed/open loop and the difference between methods that reprogram the map (Rexxer), and methods that intercept the stock map fueling and modify it through meddling with inputs like lambda, etc. My 2010 MTS is my first bike last year, and I also bought a 2014 KTM 690 Duke. With the Duke I had a lot of success with the Booster Plug that just fools the system to thinking the incoming air is 30 degrees cooler. BP and taller gearing helped a lot on that bike I've been riding through the winter and now getting ready to tune up my MTS for summer.
I Think you're a bit confused here.

A Race ECU is basically a Remapped Stock ECU (Mapped for a richer mixture to accommodate exhaust and intake as well as remove some sensors).

1-Why would you want to remap a Race Ecu? Its already a remapped Stock Ecu. Its Mapped for the Termi Exhuast and Intake. But i guess if you wanted to remap it, you could Remap it just some some do on a stock Ecu. Im not sure what you want to map it to tho?

2- Again, The Race ECU is already remapped. So im not sure why youd want to piggy back another system on it? Most use the Stock ECU and another system (tuneboy/rapidbike/etc). I guess mayby if you want to service reset you could.
 

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I am not familiar with that system exactly but as no one really races a multistrada it is a hop up map as Nokfir2 said. Many of the performance ecu's keep the O2 sensors as well and this often is where the bikes are still lean after the new ecu is added.

Popping on decel is a lean condition as you are telling the ecu that the throttle is closed but you are still at a high rpm and forcing air into the motor due to speed as opposed to setting idling. If a dyno tuner has access to this part of the map they often will richen it so the popping is reduced. Racers don't care. Though backfires will blow exhaust packing out faster than normal.

Under 3500rpms you are on the O2 sensor portion of the map and the bike is likely lean here. If it can be richened then it will get better but that may be a big if. If you have functioning O2 sensors they will likely take away any fuel you give it unless you trick them. If they have been turned off in the ecu then the map should have been modified to be richer in this area. Often these bikes are held to about .2-.3CO in this band and best driveability will be more like 3.0-5.0 CO so you can see it is quite lean. I would start by having someone read your air/fuel and/or CO to see how lean you are and where it changes.

A dyno would be good for this but a shop with a accurate CO meter will be able to read up to 3500 on the bench as well. I just mapped a Rapidbike for a monster 1100 and it was off a ton especially down low. Getting the readings will give you a idea what the next step should be.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
1-Why would you want to remap a Race Ecu? Its already a remapped Stock Ecu. Its Mapped for the Termi Exhuast and Intake. But i guess if you wanted to remap it, you could Remap it just some some do on a stock Ecu. Im not sure what you want to map it to tho?

2- Again, The Race ECU is already remapped. So im not sure why youd want to piggy back another system on it? Most use the Stock ECU and another system (tuneboy/rapidbike/etc). I guess mayby if you want to service reset you could.
As I stated, smoothness in the low rev range and popping on deceleration. The question is can the Termi race ECU be improved upon? Has anybody done it?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am not familiar with that system exactly but as no one really races a multistrada it is a hop up map as Nokfir2 said. Many of the performance ecu's keep the O2 sensors as well and this often is where the bikes are still lean after the new ecu is added.

Popping on decel is a lean condition as you are telling the ecu that the throttle is closed but you are still at a high rpm and forcing air into the motor due to speed as opposed to setting idling. If a dyno tuner has access to this part of the map they often will richen it so the popping is reduced. Racers don't care. Though backfires will blow exhaust packing out faster than normal.

Under 3500rpms you are on the O2 sensor portion of the map and the bike is likely lean here. If it can be richened then it will get better but that may be a big if. If you have functioning O2 sensors they will likely take away any fuel you give it unless you trick them. If they have been turned off in the ecu then the map should have been modified to be richer in this area. Often these bikes are held to about .2-.3CO in this band and best driveability will be more like 3.0-5.0 CO so you can see it is quite lean. I would start by having someone read your air/fuel and/or CO to see how lean you are and where it changes.

A dyno would be good for this but a shop with a accurate CO meter will be able to read up to 3500 on the bench as well. I just mapped a Rapidbike for a monster 1100 and it was off a ton especially down low. Getting the readings will give you a idea what the next step should be.

Good luck.
O2 sensor is already removed with the full Termi system. Lean condition is what I suspect is still present with the full Termi system due to the popping and surging at low RPM. This is why I am asking if it can/has been done and if remap or add on is best route to tune it more?
 

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all the mitsubishi ecu are closed loop, both std and dp variants. flash the ecu to get the lambda sensors disabled and it'll make a lot of difference to low speed running. rexxer, tuneboy can do that.

nothing else you do will have a proper impact in the closed loop area.

the other units - rapidbike, pcv - are add on that will include some sort of lambda sensor manipulation device.

upmap is just a generic term for the dp file that is now supplied as a ducati tool flash to the original ecu as i understand it.

booster plug is just one of those plug in things that manipulates something else, usually air temp, to keep them from going closed loop.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
all the mitsubishi ecu are closed loop, both std and dp variants. flash the ecu to get the lambda sensors disabled and it'll make a lot of difference to low speed running. rexxer, tuneboy can do that.

nothing else you do will have a proper impact in the closed loop area.

the other units - rapidbike, pcv - are add on that will include some sort of lambda sensor manipulation device.

upmap is just a generic term for the dp file that is now supplied as a ducati tool flash to the original ecu as i understand it.

booster plug is just one of those plug in things that manipulates something else, usually air temp, to keep them from going closed loop.
The full Termi system does not have lambda sensors as I stated in the original post. The race ECU is thus already flashed to eliminate lambda sensors.

Other units Rapidbike, PCV, if they work by lambda will not work with full Termi system because there is no lambda.

UpMap is a new map loader by Termignoni. That is what I am talking about, not a generic term. https://www.up-map.it/en/t800/

Booster Plug lowers the air temp input by 30 degrees to richen the mixture in the closed loop. It does not prevent closed loop but rather relies upon closed loop.

It is irritating when you are a novice and research an issue then ask others who have more experience and knowledge to receive back false information and answers that indicate the information presented in the OP was not understood. I do appreciate answers back, but my question was does anybody know about this?
 

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my apologies on failing you so badly.

the dp ecu is closed loop, all the mitsubishi are whether oem or dp. if the lambda are already removed then it's been flashed, because it'd log faults if it was a dp ecu with the lambda sensors removed. so it's just a case of the map that has been flashed into it isn't very good.
 

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Sorry I do not have more info for you. I would reach out to the makers of the up-map , rexxer ,power commander and let them know what you have and your wants and needs. I think you will find most are simply canned maps designed to work on the average bike and set up. If you vary or if your bike is outside the norms expect the canned maps to not give average results. On a race system they could not care about popping on decel or running under 3500 rpm's because a race bike would not be that low or care about popping.

A system that could be tuned on a dyno or a street map that the mapping company spent the time mapping down low sounds to be what you want. I would start by contacting the usual suspects (rexxer, rapidbike etc) as well as local dyno shops to see if you can get closer in the area you have concerns. Ask if there is end user or dyno operator software to adjust from the canned maps if possible so in case the canned maps are not close enough it can be adjusted.

It would be interesting to see how your termi race ecu is mapped as is , Not a full power run as that is probably fine but how lean is it at 0-10% throttle opening between 2000-4000 rpms . This is the area where the factory map may still be lean because of emissions. Likewise 0% and decelerating is likely lean but can any of them adjust for it. You will need to make sure they all realize you have no cat as that will lean things out and there are no O2 sensors to keep you in a range.

The different results between your two bikes may simply be one was closer from the factory or has a better system. It is normal to find differences like this from brand to brand and model to model in a given brand. The up-map system sounds good but if it is just canned maps you are still at the mercy of who made the maps and what bikes they were made on. With the decel popping be sure that you have no exhaust leaks as well.

If this was a older bike your results would be normnal but no one rode them below 3500rpm and the decel popping was considered cool. How far we have come. :grin2:
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
my apologies on failing you so badly.

the dp ecu is closed loop, all the mitsubishi are whether oem or dp. if the lambda are already removed then it's been flashed, because it'd log faults if it was a dp ecu with the lambda sensors removed. so it's just a case of the map that has been flashed into it isn't very good.

Thank you belter for the humble response 0:) You bring up a very interesting point that if lambda is removed the race ECU has been flashed. I just thought the lambdas removed were part of the full Termi system. I did not see any lambdas.

But I was wrong. I found it under the lower cover. There is 1 lambda (O2 sensor) confirmed. There is probably another one on the rear header too. So I am now assuming it is just basic full Termi. I have also confirmed the Mitsibutshi race ecu in the past by inspecting the part number on the ECU and the red "racing" lighting up on the display. My apologies for not getting the lambda sensor issue right the first time, but it is there.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
If this was a older bike your results would be normnal but no one rode them below 3500rpm and the decel popping was considered cool. How far we have come. :grin2:
How true. It does pull your arms off above 3500 and runs OK below. I suspect it is an average decent full Termi tune. I just want to tweak it to be better. And service reset capability would be worth the money spent on a tuner system if it did that. Rexxer I believe is the only one that claims to do service resets.

Does anyone know if any tuning systems besides Rexxer offer service resets and error code resets?

But Rexxer is just a remap, no real custom tuning. Rapidbike & Tuneboy seem to have a better chance of custom mapping and from what I can tell only Tuneboy actually remaps the ECU whereas Rapidbike changes ECU values intercepting the lambda and adding and subtracting to the values the ECU map has. So for custom mapping for the specific bike direct to ECU only Tuneboy seems to support that method?

Also, note taken, on checking header bolts for looseness that could cause popping.

You guys have helped me start to get a better understanding of how this complex system is actually working and I appreciate that. I think my question 1 has been answered on what the difference is with the full Termi race ECU is has been answered. Just a canned remap for the decat full Termi system. Also my question is this the best possible mapping? Probably better, but still a canned map that could be improved in low rev range to the specific bike. I'm still looking at question 2 which tune system is best to achieve the results I seek? Is Rexxer the only one that can do service resets?
 

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I am not familiar with that system exactly but as no one really races a multistrada it is a hop up map as Nokfir2 said. Many of the performance ecu's keep the O2 sensors as well and this often is where the bikes are still lean after the new ecu is added.

Popping on decel is a lean condition as you are telling the ecu that the throttle is closed but you are still at a high rpm and forcing air into the motor due to speed as opposed to setting idling. If a dyno tuner has access to this part of the map they often will richen it so the popping is reduced. Racers don't care. Though backfires will blow exhaust packing out faster than normal.

Under 3500rpms you are on the O2 sensor portion of the map and the bike is likely lean here. If it can be richened then it will get better but that may be a big if. If you have functioning O2 sensors they will likely take away any fuel you give it unless you trick them. If they have been turned off in the ecu then the map should have been modified to be richer in this area. Often these bikes are held to about .2-.3CO in this band and best driveability will be more like 3.0-5.0 CO so you can see it is quite lean. I would start by having someone read your air/fuel and/or CO to see how lean you are and where it changes.

A dyno would be good for this but a shop with a accurate CO meter will be able to read up to 3500 on the bench as well. I just mapped a Rapidbike for a monster 1100 and it was off a ton especially down low. Getting the readings will give you a idea what the next step should be.

Good luck.
I know of one guy that has raced a Multistrada with great results, Carlin Dunne has won Pikes Peak on one a few times.
 

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I'm still looking at question 2 which tune system is best to achieve the results I seek? Is Rexxer the only one that can do service resets?
No, Rexxer is not the only one. You can do service resets with Tuneboy as well. I don't know how/if it works with the DP Termi ECU, though.
In theory, it should work because the Termi ECU is the same Mitsubishi ECU as the standard one with a different map.
I suggest to ask Wayne at Tuneboy about it.
 

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No idea about what's in your vicinity, but basically you find a bike dyno as close as possible to you that can flash your ecu to open loop and that can dyno tune it. Probably with Tuneboy....

One of my Ducks uses Magneti-Marelli, and my other one has a Siemens ecu, but the procedure is similar.

My S4RS with DP-ecu popped, surged and stuttered, getting 42mpg.
A trim/CO tune reduced pop, surge and stutter, but also reduced mileage to 36mpg.
A reflash of the DP-ecu and full dyno tune got rid of all the pop, surge and stutter, increasing mileage to 50mpg. I didn't get any extra top end ponies, but definitely more in the lower ranges, and a much nicer bike to ride.

Didn't take figures for the Monster 1100 Evo ABS, but similar result; smoother running below 4000rpm.

Clearing codes and service lights, well, guess you'd have to buy your own copy of the software used. Discuss it with the dyno tuner...
 

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I'm apprehensive even bringing this up on a thread focused on re-mapping but here goes ... How long has it been since the valve clearances were checked and how closely did the tech set them to specification mid-range?

I only bring this up because my bike (2013, full Termi, OEM up-map) did backfire (pop) on overrun (decel), especially when coasting down hill ... until its first belt change. The tech took extra care to shim each valve to the mid-range of the clearance spec even though many would have called it "close enough". The result was a discernible improvement in low-end throttle response and a huge reduction in backfiring.

Again, I only bring this up because sometimes we are tempted to "chase the magic" and forget about the basics.
Good luck on your quest!
 

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I had all that done and didn't help mine - not to say that all Ducks are the same though. If that worked for you that's good. I had to go the whole hog to get mine running well enough for me. Now I'm happy with it.
 

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From gas testing bikes on the bench I know that 99% of the time if the O2 sensors are present even with a "race ecu" the CO will still be kept at emission levels .2-.3%CO. Best driveability/power is in the range of 3-5%CO (note the decimal points). This changed around 2008, prior if you bought a Dp ecu,map,chip,flashload you eliminated the O2 sensors and the bike was richer down low causing it to run great. I am not sure what happened around 2008 but think about the VW diesel saga and you may get an idea. It is easy to say you have a race map for race bike models but it is harder when the bike the race map is made for is not commonly raced.

So somewhere around that time the DP maps suddenly kept the O2 sensors and with them ran around .2-.3%CO still under 4000rpm-ish. This is why they ran like crap compared to the older polluting bikes. We could trim them in the ecu but the O2 sensors would simply take it away and bring them back to .2-.3%CO. If we disconnected the sensors they would default to a full rich mode (to get you home) and often run much better, but dash codes would appear and newer ecu's may cause other issues.

Madduc (IIRC) had a in line device that gave you a dial to trick the ecu from the O2 sensors into thinking the bike was lean and it would richen the bike. In my testing up to 1.0-1.5%CO which while not where we want it was a great improvement for many riders. Rapidbike is the only piggyback that uses the factory O2 sensors in a similar way and allows you to tune the 0-4000rpm band as well as above. They have a auto tune feature that NEEDS miles to adapt and has a given amount of trim that it can adapt . I just had a monster on the dyno with a rapidbike, exhaust and de-cat, and the base map was so far off the auto tune could not get close to proper fueling. The base rapidbike map was changed. and then auto tune turned back on.

If it were my own bike I would start by verifying how lean and where. Then look to see if there is a cheap inline device like the Madduc and give that a try. If that does not work your next step would be a rapidbike and if it works well enough you are done. If not then find a dyno operator near you and have them adjust the base map of the rapidbike. At the same time you might look into if anyone has a re-program that eliminates the O2 sensors and has been mapped well in the area where they were functioning. If you ask them and they do not effect the sub 4000rpm band and keep the oem O2 sensors they will likely do very little for your problem and keep looking.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I'm apprehensive even bringing this up on a thread focused on re-mapping but here goes ... How long has it been since the valve clearances were checked and how closely did the tech set them to specification mid-range?

I only bring this up because my bike (2013, full Termi, OEM up-map) did backfire (pop) on overrun (decel), especially when coasting down hill ... until its first belt change. The tech took extra care to shim each valve to the mid-range of the clearance spec even though many would have called it "close enough". The result was a discernible improvement in low-end throttle response and a huge reduction in backfiring.

Again, I only bring this up because sometimes we are tempted to "chase the magic" and forget about the basics.
Good luck on your quest!
Good point on the valves. Mine have not been adjusted yet. My 2010 had 1800 miles on it when I bought it May 2018, it has 7000 on it now. I did have the belts replaced because it was more than 5 years old as a precaution. I replaced tires too for same reason.

It does do the popping when throttle off on downhill slopes. So that is consistent with yours. I will check the header bolts to make sure they are tight as suggested earlier, but valves are not due till 12,000 as I understand it. I probably will not do them till next winter.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
ducvet, the CO being adjusted by the O2 sensors is good point. I checked and the Termi decat does still include the O2 sensors on my 2010. But aren't the adjustments by the O2 sensors made by the ECU, not the O2 sensors themselves? What I am saying is couldn't the ECU just be reprogramed to adjust the CO to higher levels like you say by a tuner that flashes the ECU? This would include Tuneboy and Rexxer?
 
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