[stryder]

ST3 Tuning: PCIII vs Tech-L vs Technoresearch

Have been looking into tuning my ST3 this spring and have been communicating with a couple of different tuners.

Firstly, I respect the info I received from one tuner who is know for tuning Ducatis among other bikes, and he recommended the best set-up for an ST3 in terms of mid-range returns is with a set of slip-ons, a K&N only, ie no air box mods, with a Techlussion installed to tweak efi on the dyno.

Another tuner whom I've dealt with before and also respect who also tunes race bikes, states he prefers the PC products to the Techlusion re dialing in the a/f.

Is there a PCIII for the ST3, and does anybody have any comments re the pros and cons between these two piggy-back efi computer tuning systems? Or, is the Technoresearch the best way to go re the MM 5.9?

Thanks.

 

[Mike]

The 5.9 ECU cannot be re-mapped without specialized equipment that not even Dealers have. The TechnoResearch tool is useful for adjusting the fuel trim and TPS but it cannot re-map.

 

[stryder]

Thanks Mike.

I thought that PCIIIs, Techlusions "piggy-back" computers, took over the EFI functions from the factory ecu, and could be "mapped", but not so for the 5.9?

I also thought there was a PCIII model for the ST4s 996 engine that run 5.9's as well, and owners were tuning them on dynos with custom maps. No?

Raising the fuel trim is what's referred to in the famous Moto-one article, so I'm guessing that's what the 1st tuner had in mind(?). (I mean the bike runs so very well in standard form, I just want some more grunt and a sweeter exhaust note)

Maybe I just haven't unearthed the right source, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of ST3 dyno tuning recommendations/information out there.

 

[st2lemans]

Thanks Mike.

I thought that PCIIIs, Techlusions "piggy-back" computers, took over the EFI functions from the factory ecu, and could be "mapped"

Yes.

but not so for the 5.9?"

Also for the 5.9. The 5.9 cannot be remapped itself (which is what Mike was refering to, but explained badly), but of course the piggy-back computers don't care what you have OEM.

Tom

 

[Mike]

Raising the fuel trim is what's referred to in the famous Moto-one article, so I'm guessing that's what the 1st tuner had in mind(?). (I mean the bike runs so very well in standard form, I just want some more grunt and a sweeter exhaust note)

The Moto-one article used a Ducati Performance ECU with little improvement. No disrespect to the Moto-one tuner but I suspect he didn't take enough time to sort it out and figure why he wasn't getting significant improvement. My guess is there was something on that bike that didn't match the breathing characteristics that were intended when Ducati mapped the ST3 Performance ECU. This seems more likely to me than the possibility that Ducati screwed the map up so badly there was hardly any improvement but, of course, anything's possible. In time, more tuners will experiment with the ST3 and the Performance ECU and then it will become more clear whether the Performance ECU is poorly mapped or whether the Moto-one test bike was different in some way. It's possible that the breathing characteristics of the ST3 engine are such that there isn't a lot of room for improvement simply by bolting on pipe and airbox mods and using a different map. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Time will tell.

The beauty of using a pre-mapped ECU is simplicity, less parts to fail. The downside is that you will only get optimum results when the characteristics of your particular modifications and settings match those the ECU was designed for.

I'm not familiar with the detailed specifications of the two piggyback solutions you mention. I'm sure there are some pro's and cons to each but either would probably get you where you want to go. The downside is you need a competent tuner willing to spend the time and the extra parts/wiring that could fail. The piggy-back solution will achieve the best results if your mods are different from those intended to work with the Ducati Performance ECU (and also significantly different from the OEM setup). If all you have is pipes you may be able to get satisfactory results from the OEM ECU just by changing the fuel trim a bit. But don't expect much more power because you will end up a too rich at lower rpm's/throttle openings if you increase the fuel significantly using only the fuel trim adjustment.

Tom said it correctly, the piggyback solutions don't re-map the ECU, they apply a basic correction map on top of the OEM map. The end result is similar to a re-mapped ECU except only the duration of the fuel pulses are affected, the timing advance map remains unchanged and this basic correction map has less granularity than the OEM map. It's all you should need for the type of mods you have in mind but the results will only be as good as the skill of the tuner who programs the corrections.

 

[Willy_Mac]

Interestingly last week my wife's ST3 went in for its 10,000 km service and we used the opportunity to install the DP ECU that had been replaced under warranty. We had been using our standard ECU although we have had installed some time ago the racing CF pipes and air filter we got as part of the silencer kit.
After reading the reports from Moto-One I was a bit apprehensive as to the results we would get. However I was very happily surprised. The ST3 throttle is very responsive and the engine does not appear to have lost any power in the 3000 - 5000 rev range, as the Moto-One report suggests. Furthermore, with the standard ECU, power seemed to peak at 8,000 rpm and no purpose was served from trying to rev past this stage. With the DP ECU, the ST3 revs very sweetly to 10,000 rpm.

 

[stryder]

If I understood the 1st tuner's suggestion correctly, he stated that one should just add the k&n, *without* the open air box when using the DP ecu with slip ons, and then, if one wanted, adding a Techlusion will help further fine tune the a/f across the rev range. I agree that it does complicate, perhaps needlessly the DP ecu-FI connections and will also take away some underseat storage, however, if there are a few ponys/lbs grunt available under 8500, I'd like to tap into them.

I was wondering if anybody had experience between the Techlusion and the PCIII systems, as if get the gist of the operating principle behind the Techlusion, it adjusts fuel based on torque demand, not rpm, and was designed by a former dyno-jet employee to improve metering where the DJ falls short, ie to sense the difference on engine load between gears when the rpms are the same, and adjust a/f accordingly. (Please don't take this as definitive, as my understanding may be waaayy off)

The other tuner I contacted, (who dynoed my old Harley for me), stated he likes to tune with the PCIII, but, Techlusions are relatively newly available in the great white north afaik, so he may not have had the oportunity to work with one yet.

I guess it may be a matter of just going with the slip ons, (I'm leaning towards SIL Motor c/f ovals) a k&n, *without* air box mods, and see how she pulls on the dyno, and then add a Techlusion to the standard ecu if the gains aren't there or the sniffer reads too far off average 13~13.5 wfo.

If all goes well, I'll be posting some dyno charts come spring.

 

[amullo]

I have a PC3 on my 748 and I´m happy with what it did for the bike.

The ST3 has had some problems with fuel/air.. especially the earlier models. Some say that the FI is off and some say that you need to set the cams.

Brad at Moto-One is pretty good at what he does, but I´m inclined to agree with Mike that it seems that he didn´t really take his time trying to sort the DP-ECU. Besides which.. He hasn´t a reputation for using DP-parts anyway, so that MAY shine through somewhat.

The PCIII is a nice piece of kit and alot of tuners know how to work with it, so that´s a big plus.

FIM (Fuel Injected Motorcycles) is the company Brad often works with to develop new mapps for the bike he tweaks. They have an upgrade for the 5.9, but not one that works on the ST models or Multistrada. They seem to be working on a solution for that. THAT module will give you alot of parametres to work with, but isn´t yet availble.

Check out there homepage for more info.
http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/
I´d guess that they are going to have a module sorted very soon.

I have no knowledge of Tech-L or Technoresearch so I´ll leave it to others to comment.

//amullo

 

[stryder]

FWIW, the response I received from DJ re PCIII for ST3:

"Unfortunately we have not looked at this bike for development. We have been told by other Ducat dealers that part #710-411 will run on this bike but I can not confirm this. You may want to contact Fast By Ducat as they do quite a bit of Power Commander testing. Thanks."

Either they haven't heard the 3v is the only ST engine available commencing 2006, and rumoured to replace the DS1000 re emissions, or they don't see it as a big enough market, or they figure the #710-411 will do, which is listed for the S4 and S4R 2002-'05 Monsters. (916 & 996 4v?)

Also, my dealer called me back and stated I can get the Termi/DP kit with the ecu and air filter, for 50.00 less than a set of SIL Motor c/f ovals. Does this seem right? ie Termi/DP kit 1250.00 cdn, ie approx 1K used, and SIL slip ons, 1300.00 coden approx 1040.000 used. Those figures are plus applicable sales taxes, ie another 15%(cdn lol!)

 

[st2lemans]

FWIW, the response I received from DJ re PCIII for ST3:

"Unfortunately we have not looked at this bike for development. We have been told by other Ducat dealers that part #710-411 will run on this bike but I can not confirm this. You may want to contact Fast By Ducat as they do quite a bit of Power Commander testing. Thanks."

Either they haven't heard the 3v is the only ST engine available commencing 2006, and rumoured to replace the DS1000 re emissions, or they don't see it as a big enough market, or they figure the #710-411 will do, which is listed for the S4 and S4R 2002-'05 Monsters. (916 & 996 4v?)

Also, my dealer called me back and stated I can get the Termi/DP kit with the ecu and air filter, for 50.00 less than a set of SIL Motor c/f ovals. Does this seem right? ie Termi/DP kit 1250.00 cdn, ie approx 1K used, and SIL slip ons, 1300.00 coden approx 1040.000 used. Those figures are plus applicable sales taxes, ie another 15%(cdn lol!)

I got the SILs for my SS from Carpimoto,

http://www.carpimoto.it/content/prod/l_IT/s_11_Scarichi/br_8_Ducati/bi_18_ST3/pr_3031_Sil_Motor_silenziatore_Sil_Motor_Ducati_ST2_ST3_omologato_con_db_killer_asportabile_coppia_silenziatori_ovali_carbonio.htm

EUR500, about $700 Canadian, plus shipping and tax, but I'm sure that that's less than $600!

Tom

 

[stryder]

750.00 cdn with 15% taxes is about 860.00 cdn, before shipping it with insurance AND then adding import duties at the border. Yes that should be less than 635.00, but how much less?

It'd be interesting to see your final costs for an apples to apples before I order anything. When are you getting them?

 

[st2lemans]

750.00 cdn with 15% taxes is about 860.00 cdn, before shipping it with insurance AND then adding import duties at the border. Yes that should be less than 635.00, but how much less?

It'd be interesting to see your final costs for an apples to apples before I order anything. When are you getting them?

EUR 500 is $690 cdn (not $750), according to my bank's website http://quotes.ubs.com/quotes/X0=30/X1=sHoMtfl7vcXLuU5$hJJAwsyeWOyeu1W6HtdRCTq4c79gLbzs7HMXOSSGtVQDZ1FCYpKd57z5nbwSt9psJSXvfkzLj$rMBJHt1nWFd1S7ZrSw=/X2=saxrvbkFvDdq4CtOVHbHntak9133$goIg (look at CAD - EUR rate)

I already got mine a year ago.

I sent my head and cyclinders to Canada last year (I live in Switzerland), 20kg via FedEx, about $400 cdn, and the pipes weigh about 6kg, so shipping must be a lot less. Somebody on the ST2 list from the US got a set recently, I think he paid $100 shipping + taxes or so.

Anyway, email them and ask how much shipping is.

Tom

 

[stryder]

I like your exchange converter a lot better than mine!

Where in Canada did you send your heads? loudbike?

 

[st2lemans]

MBP, near Montreal.

Tom

 

[stryder]

Hope the heads worked well for you.

Re your SILs: How was the fit? I've heard from one dealer I'm working with that they don't fit well, and often have to be returned, this is why he recommends the Termis. How was your experience with fit?

 

[st2lemans]

They fit fine, and even came with removable noise reducers (which I removed).

Tom

 

[stryder]

Ordered a set of SIL Motor c/f ovals with removable baffles today. Should get them in 3-5 weeks. Paid 1100.00 cdn, which includes taxes of 140.00 plus 22.00 shipping costs to my door, ie approx 935.00 cdn for the slip-ons only, which is equal to 807.00 usd or 678.00 euros. Considering it's about half the material compared to a full system, stepped header D&D for my old Harley for about the same money, that makes them approx twice the cost.

The only other price I was quoted was 1300.00 cdn *plus* 15% taxes. Considered ordering from abroad, ie Italy ie carpimotor, but with shipping costs and import tariffs, that approx 690.00 cdn, ie 500.00 euros would probably end up close to or more than 935.00 cdn, ie shipping costs alone could be 100.00. Ordered from "Loud Bike" in Ottawa. (I live in the Niagara region) Look forward to hearing them.

I'm pretty much convinced that I'll be going with the Techlusion as well, and hope to be tuned and dynoed and on the road by May

 

[bradblack]

i came across this thread from the links at the bottom of another. not sure if the posters are still here or not, but figured i'd put this up anyway.

No disrespect to the Moto-one tuner but I suspect he didn't take enough time to sort it out and figure why he wasn't getting significant improvement. My guess is there was something on that bike that didn't match the breathing characteristics that were intended when Ducati mapped the ST3 Performance ECU.

the alleged dp ecu i used was supplied by the importer to try to pinpoint an issue i was having with our demo bike where the immobilisor seemed to be activated by running the bike on the dyno and then turning it on and off with the rear wheel spinning, stuff like that. i figured it was either wrongly labelled or something - i've ridden st3 with dp ecu since that have been fine. so i assume it was a one off issue.

not sure what else i could have tried tho - i've fitted a few ecus over the years and always do it the same way. it was way off, and the bike was fine with the std ecu.

 

[bradblack]

MBP, near Montreal.

Tom

any word on how the heads worked?

 

[st2lemans]

any word on how the heads worked?

My 944 ST2 has 90 RWHP, vs. my SS1000DS with open intake and Sils (same dyno, same day) measured at 87 RWHP.

The ST2 has a standard (FIM) map and cam timing, so there may be more HP in dealing with that.

The bike defineitely pulls past 9000, whereas it used to flatten out past 7000.

Tom