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Shower injection on 2v bikes?

2067 Views 18 Replies 3 Participants Last post by  Monsterinside
I'll begin by saying that ive searched far and wide for this info.

Background:

The bike is an s2r bored to 1078 hi comp with tpo beast r kit currently installed. With a power commander, it never felt like it was running optimally, so I switched to microtec only because I got an insane deal.

I ended up with an extra set of injectors from an 848 evo (12 hole iwp189) that I am very curious about trying. I have a feeling that the high flow would make it it would run too rich with not enough atomization with the injectors routed under the butterflies. This is just a theory and please feel free to correct me if im wrong. I know a remapping will be necessary either way.

I have the system apart and am thinking about going to 50 mm throttle bodies (using 2 748/996 horizontal throttle bodies).

I plan on porting the heads and going +1 on the valves at some point, but would the 50mm be overkill before doing that work?

I was thinking about chopping the top of my k&n filters and making a carbon fiber mount/filter cap so the injectors can be mounted directly to the filters (at least before I go to 50 mm throttle bodies), but don't really want to chop up the kit.

This also led me down the road of straightening the intake tracts, so any info on that would be greatly appreciated.

I know, a pretty scattered post, but I have been constantly researching and learning and don't have a complete grasp on the engineering, so I figure i'd reach out to the experts.

Questions:
50mm throttle bodies (unracked with a throttle cable running from each)?
Shower injection with straightened intake tract?
iwp189 in oem injector holes?

I'm upgrading to a higher flow fuel pump and am considering changing out the stock fuel pressure regulator for one with slightly higher pressure, maybe 3.5 BAR (only because I have the assembly apart to switch to a ca cycleworks tank). I read a post where someone where either Brad B or Chris K mentioned modifying the stock regulator to bump the pressure up, but it only said to take a hammer to it, giving less room for the spring to move. I feel like this is easy to mess up though.

I know I'm making a lot of changes at once, but since I had the bike apart and welt down the rabbit hole of fueling and injection, I cant seem to stop thinking about it until I find definitive answers.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Also to note, if I go to shower injection, I will either use an 848 airbox chopped up to fit everything or make a huge carbon fiber one with sbk style ram intakes, which will seal any extra fuel from getting everywhere.

Long winded and scattered are my main attributes these days, but any advice/help/info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!
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I'll begin by saying that ive searched far and wide for this info.

Background:

The bike is an s2r bored to 1078 hi comp with tpo beast r kit currently installed. With a power commander, it never felt like it was running optimally, so I switched to microtec only because I got an insane deal.

I ended up with an extra set of injectors from an 848 evo (12 hole iwp189) that I am very curious about trying. I have a feeling that the high flow would make it it would run too rich with not enough atomization with the injectors routed under the butterflies. This is just a theory and please feel free to correct me if im wrong. I know a remapping will be necessary either way.

I have the system apart and am thinking about going to 50 mm throttle bodies (using 2 748/996 horizontal throttle bodies).

I plan on porting the heads and going +1 on the valves at some point, but would the 50mm be overkill before doing that work?

I was thinking about chopping the top of my k&n filters and making a carbon fiber mount/filter cap so the injectors can be mounted directly to the filters (at least before I go to 50 mm throttle bodies), but don't really want to chop up the kit.

This also led me down the road of straightening the intake tracts, so any info on that would be greatly appreciated.

I know, a pretty scattered post, but I have been constantly researching and learning and don't have a complete grasp on the engineering, so I figure i'd reach out to the experts.

Questions:
50mm throttle bodies (unracked with a throttle cable running from each)?
Shower injection with straightened intake tract?
iwp189 in oem injector holes?

I'm upgrading to a higher flow fuel pump and am considering changing out the stock fuel pressure regulator for one with slightly higher pressure, maybe 3.5 BAR (only because I have the assembly apart to switch to a ca cycleworks tank). I read a post where someone where either Brad B or Chris K mentioned modifying the stock regulator to bump the pressure up, but it only said to take a hammer to it, giving less room for the spring to move. I feel like this is easy to mess up though.

I know I'm making a lot of changes at once, but since I had the bike apart and welt down the rabbit hole of fueling and injection, I cant seem to stop thinking about it until I find definitive answers.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Also to note, if I go to shower injection, I will either use an 848 airbox chopped up to fit everything or make a huge carbon fiber one with sbk style ram intakes, which will seal any extra fuel from getting everywhere.

Long winded and scattered are my main attributes these days, but any advice/help/info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!
I'm no expert myself.
This is the set-up for my 1100SS .
999 TBs on a Hyper engine with downdraught ports.
https://www.ducati.ms/threads/my-aircooled-1100-downdraught-head
999817

IWP 189s are below the butterflies on the S4RS and seem to work fine.
If you design carefully the cable actuation, you should have no issues - I don't.
Marelli internals, in a home made shell for the pressure regulator.

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Oh man, I have so many questions from looking at your other thread.

I’ve only driven it a few hundred miles since rebuild, but was getting detonation so I switched to colder plugs.

What’s the process for retarding ignition on a ds1000/1100? Microtec ecu btw

Did you design ram intakes and seal the airbox?

I’m considering using a spare 848 airbox modified to fit, then directing the shower injection towards the velocity stacks, but the injectors look much further away from the inlet.

848 throttle bodies are cheap, so I might just get a set and fabricate intake boots to fit.

I’m nowhere near where you are with machining skills, so I was just thinking about lightly porting the heads and maybe opening the intake ports, but I’m still in the research phase.

Haven’t been able to find much info yet, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

I’m not expecting power gains, just smoother power delivery.
 

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Oh man, I have so many questions from looking at your other thread.
Ask away :)
I’ve only driven it a few hundred miles since rebuild, but was getting detonation so I switched to colder plugs.
Did that cure the detonation?
You might consider dual-plugging the heads.
Did you measure compression volume/squish ?
Diameter of the pistons ?

What’s the process for retarding ignition on a ds1000/1100? Microtec ecu btw
Sorry, I use a IAW5AM withTunerPro.
Can you post the ignition map(s) you use?


Did you design ram intakes and seal the airbox?
Tank seals the airbox. At some point I'll measure the pressure in the box, and might install a ram air scoop.

I’m considering using a spare 848 airbox modified to fit, then directing the shower injection towards the velocity stacks, but the injectors look much further away from the inlet.

848 throttle bodies are cheap, so I might just get a set and fabricate intake boots to fit.
I found my 999 TBs with intake trumpets and injectors cheap too.

I’m nowhere near where you are with machining skills, so I was just thinking about lightly porting the heads and maybe opening the intake ports, but I’m still in the research phase.

Haven’t been able to find much info yet, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
I'll help, if I can.
I’m not expecting power gains, just smoother power delivery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Yeah it corrected the detonation, but I don't believe it was the best option. I'll have to get a dial guage and a piston stop and try timing the cams a little better

It is dual plugged, but when I was using a pc3, it seemed to randomly reset to the original map for the 1000(mine is bored out to 1100), so it was running lean for a few rides. i started experiencing a lot of oil blow out of the crankcase breather so i did a compression test that turned out with OK results (dont remember the #'s though). I know I need to also do a leak down test, but havent gotten around to that yet.

Squish was set at 1mm, so on the low end, which makes startup a bitch, but Ill balance the throttle bodies and refresh the starter clutch before putting it back together.

I have tunerpro for stock ECUs, but couldnt pass on the opportunity to have a microtec in both my sf and s2r, leaving me with only one interface to deal with, at least on my personal bikes.

I think the 999 setup is more flexible with the injectors directly attached to the trumpets, so im gonna try to find a set. My plan was to make a fiberglass mold of the under tank area, cut a small rectangular section out of the back to act as a battery box, seal it back up, and bolt it to oversized RAM intakes, maybe using MWR 2 piece racing filters for an 848 where the ram intakes meet the airbox, effectively leaving me with a high volume airbox after i seal up the bottom around the intake trumpets.

What was your reasoning for using an adjustable pressure regulator? I have been considering a similar modification, but haven't settled on which one would be the lightest/easiest setup.

Unfortunately I uploading the maps that came with the microtec(I specifically bought it because it had custom maps for an extremely similar setup) because I decided to take the wiring harness out, untangle everything, and cut out all the bulk. I've removed about five pounds (including the bulky ignition and stock gauges, motogadget mini that im wiring in weighs like an ounce) just from the wiring harness, so once I get that finished, I will upload the maps from the ecu and post the ignition tables. If i can grab the ignition tables from the pc3 from my shop computer, I will post them up.

Tanks for the detailed response! My original post was extremely scattered, so I appreciate you taking the time to decipher it.

One more question for now: How much work was it to make the downdraft ports? Machine work is the thing i have the least experience.

Thanks in advance, I'm off to port some scrap 750 heads so I can perfect the process for the when the s2r heads inevitably come off(y)

Forgot to add, running 98 mm pistons from wiseco/Fast By Ferracci
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
One more thing: Why did you add a 5mm sleeve to the tensioner rollers? Was it for timing purposes? How did you secure them on?
 

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Squish was set at 1mm, so on the low end, which makes startup a bitch, but Ill balance the throttle bodies and refresh the starter clutch before putting it back together.
Did you measure the compression ratio ?

What was your reasoning for using an adjustable pressure regulator? I have been considering a similar modification, but haven't settled on which one would be the lightest/easiest setup.
Mostly because of tubes routing considerations.

One more question for now: How much work was it to make the downdraft ports? Machine work is the thing i have the least experience.
A lot, if done my way - didn't use epoxy or welding.
Less so, if done on a milling machine with a boring head, as a member from Sweden is doing at the moment.


One more thing: Why did you add a 5mm sleeve to the tensioner rollers? Was it for timing purposes? How did you secure them on?
I noticed that roller diameters increased over the years, and figured, it would make life a bit easier for the belts.
Loctite high temp. hard

Ok I have a set of 999 throttle bodies on the way, now it’s time to figure out how to set everything up 👌🏼
This might help.
999853
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I think your design is executed a bit better, but I don’t think I have the stomach to machine my heads as seriously as yours. Do you think carbon fiber would hold up being directly connected to the engine? I was thinking about making new manifolds with high temp resin because that’s the easiest way I see of doing it, but I’m not sure if it’ll hold up.

Make a two part mold, adjust inlet port size and angle, then use those.
 

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Hi
I would also put the shower injectors on a s2r1000
Do you think I need to redesign the conducts?
I was thinking of modifying the airbox by removing the center filter and repositioning it on the lid or creating a side ram air
What do you think?
 

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Hi
I would also put the shower injectors on a s2r1000
Do you think I need to redesign the conducts?
I was thinking of modifying the airbox by removing the center filter and repositioning it on the lid or creating a side ram air
What do you think?
Ciao Emanuele,
They drop wright in with no modifications.
But then you need to put the bike on the dyno and remap the fueling, as they flow more than the original.
Not worth to change them, in my opinion.
The ram air effect starts at very high speeds - not practical for a naked bike.
If, on the other hand, the inlet to the airbox gets hot air, it might be worth to relocate it.
 

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Ciao Emanuele,
Sono entrato subito senza modifiche.
Ma poi devi mettere la bici sul banco prova e rimappare il rifornimento, poiché scorrono più dell'originale.
Non vale la pena cambiarli, secondo me.
L'effetto dell'aria compressa inizia a velocità molto elevata, non pratico per una bici nuda.
Se, d'altra parte, l'ingresso dell'airbox riceve aria calda, potrebbe valere la pena spostarlo.
[/CITAZIONE]
[/QUOTE Grazie per il tuo
[/CITAZIONE]

Thanks for the reply

I expressed myself badly. I would like to put the 12-hole injectors above the intake horn without changing the intake ducts, therefore in the original airbox. I would not redesign the airbox

Does this make sense?
 

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Thanks for the reply

I expressed myself badly. I would like to put the 12-hole injectors above the intake horn without changing the intake ducts, therefore in the original airbox. I would not redesign the airbox

Does this make sense?
It does now.

I suppose it can be done - google for "cornetti aspirazione Ducati" to get some ideas on how to go about it.

Bear in mind that, if the intake tract length is increased, the torque characteristics will change.
Also, 12-hole injectors have a quite wide spray pattern and will wet the S2R duct walls excessively, impacting the throttle response, unless you also tune the acceleration map in the ECU.
The 4-valve models have straight and shorter ducts.


What are you trying to achieve with this mod ?





 

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It does now.

I suppose it can be done - google for "cornetti aspirazione Ducati" to get some ideas on how to go about it.

Bear in mind that, if the intake tract length is increased, the torque characteristics will change.
Also, 12-hole injectors have a quite wide spray pattern and will wet the S2R duct walls excessively, impacting the throttle response, unless you also tune the acceleration map in the ECU.
The 4-valve models have straight and shorter ducts.


What are you trying to achieve with this mod ?
What we all try to achieve:LOL:

I like to experience new things. I had tried to create a new fiberglass airbox with straight ducts using the 999 horns but the battery, the control unit, the fuses have to be repositioned.

The original ducts make a nasty 90 degree bend. I don't think it's very efficient for the purpose.

The airbox you posted above, on which bike did you install it? Do you have another photos?
Thanks
 

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For an all standard engine, I don't think the airbox/ducts are that much restrictive.
The bike is a '02 900SS.

This is a test model of the airbox (with the bottom of the tank as the lid- 19lt measured)
Helmet Sculpture Art Personal protective equipment Wood
 

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I found your post about editing heads! Really nice work!
Some time ago I tried to make an aibox on my racing bike
Automotive fuel system Automotive tire Motor vehicle Automotive design Vehicle

I shaped the lower part of the airbox in vtr and I wanted to create an aluminum tank that acted as a lid but I stopped at the moment
 
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