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reversre rotating rotors

3K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  chiromikey 
#1 ·
#2 ·
it's hard to take any company or web page seriously when they have such a childish web page....:(
 
#4 ·
not so much a copyright, as patent

a copyright is only for written material, a patant covers design
 
#7 ·
That guy is gonna be rich.

Racers would love that thing. We're probably going to see more lower lap times if it is adopted.

Instead of fighting/focusing on overcoming the gyroscopic effects during turning, they can focus more on being fluid.

I think this will be a motorcycling breakthrough.
 
#8 ·
chiromikey said:
i'm not that anal i guess and i'd assume he's more interested in developing his rotors than a webpage...good for him and maybe eventually, good for us.
IMO, if you're truely serious, you would take the time, or pay someone, to design a web page that reflects the quality of your design.
 
#9 ·
you think it'll stick? seems like he's adding mass and complexity. of course he's running on what looks like superlight wheels too. whats in the hub? gears? lube/oil? sounds like more stuff to take care of, break, heatup, and maintain. i'm no racer so i don't know how bad the gyro effect is vs the added complexity. i kinda like the idea that my rotors are fixed to the wheel. if something happened to that hub (gears jam, gets loose, breaks), would i lose front brakes? interesting though.

maybe i'll patent super latex tires for motorcycles like they use for mountainbiking. superlight and cuts down the weight farthest from center. :)
 
#10 ·
SpiderSense said:
you think it'll stick? seems like he's adding mass and complexity. of course he's running on what looks like superlight wheels too. whats in the hub? gears? lube/oil? sounds like more stuff to take care of, break, heatup, and maintain. i'm no racer so i don't know how bad the gyro effect is vs the added complexity. i kinda like the idea that my rotors are fixed to the wheel. if something happened to that hub (gears jam, gets loose, breaks), would i lose front brakes? interesting though.
I thought the exact same things, but didn't say anything for fear of being riddiculed. BUT! since someone else said it, I'll agree...hehe

and I still think the web page is a poor example of trying to sell a product (idea).

:D
 
#12 ·
He's an engineer for cyin out loud not a web page designer...and that's why he has a patent on that gizmo instead of copyright'd javascript :)

If they lighten up the gears with titanium maybe it would stick, pricey but light and strong. I'm sure they're not using up all that horsepower they could maybe sacrifice some.

I think they win the races in the turns right? Just where this gizmo would give them an advantage.

And that's the first iteration, just think what comes down the pike.
 
#13 ·
okay guys...FOCUS! i did NOT post this to debate his website design. i'd really like to get opinions on the product/design/theory. i'll be frank, if you're not smart enough to form an opinion of something besides shapes and colors please post somewhere else.
 
#16 ·
SpiderSense said:
you think it'll stick? seems like he's adding mass and complexity. of course he's running on what looks like superlight wheels too. whats in the hub? gears? lube/oil? sounds like more stuff to take care of, break, heatup, and maintain. i'm no racer so i don't know how bad the gyro effect is vs the added complexity. i kinda like the idea that my rotors are fixed to the wheel. if something happened to that hub (gears jam, gets loose, breaks), would i lose front brakes? interesting though.

maybe i'll patent super latex tires for motorcycles like they use for mountainbiking. superlight and cuts down the weight farthest from center. :)
yes there's added complexity but VERY little. i mean it's only a few gears. compare that to a tranny. in that light it seems simplistic and pretty easy to manage. it will have to be bulletproof to prevent possible catastrophy.

i'm no racer either but i can tell you that switching to lightweight wheels was like losing 100lbs. off of the bike when it came to transitioning. i couldn't imagine what it would feel like to reduce that even further!!!
 
#17 ·
And the effect on a much lighter GP bike will be even more significant...

level7 said:
Yeah, this will be big!
I think the next step will be for manufacturers to create a similar system of their own so they will not have to pay royalties/licensing...
 
#18 ·
MikeM said:
And the effect on a much lighter GP bike will be even more significant...



I think the next step will be for manufacturers to create a similar system of their own so they will not have to pay royalties/licensing...
I don't think they can steal this easily. There's really not much more you can do to copy the concept AND make it different enough to get another patent awarded to you. You can't get any more simplier then gears.

They'll have to wait until the patent runs out but by then, he would have made a killing.

This has ramifications outside of racing as well. Touring bikes will no doubt want to add this technology to their list of options.

He's a very lucky man/company.
 
#19 ·
level7 said:
He's an engineer for cyin out loud not a web page designer...and that's why he has a patent on that gizmo instead of copyright'd javascript :)

If they lighten up the gears with titanium maybe it would stick, pricey but light and strong. I'm sure they're not using up all that horsepower they could maybe sacrifice some.

I think they win the races in the turns right? Just where this gizmo would give them an advantage.

And that's the first iteration, just think what comes down the pike.
If I'm a potential investor, and I see how little time he spent to design his marketing...it would make me wonder.

Now, as to the insult on my intelligence. Completely uncalled for. I retort with the notion that if you can't think broad enough to see where I'm coming from then maybe you're the one who needs to have your intelligence reexamined.

;) :D

Now, onto the brakes, this could be seen on production bikes, all it would take is for him to sell the right to use it on x# of bikes from a manufacturer.
 
#20 · (Edited)
JDuc said:
Now, as to the insult on my intelligence. Completely uncalled for. I retort with the notion that if you can't think broad enough to see where I'm coming from then maybe you're the one who needs to have your intelligence reexamined.

;) :D
uncalled for?...maybe. BUT, where you "were coming from" was completely off topic taking the intent of this thread along with it. web designers, potential investors, and color blind people need to start their own thread.

regardless, i was just pointed toward the discussion i was hoping for:

http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18570
 
#21 ·
IMO some of the theory is wrong...Precession is the tendency of an object to drift in the direction of rotation. Stand a coin on edje and spin it. if you hold it with your left hand and flick it with your right it will be rotating ccw and the slower it's spinning the tighter the arc will be...same reason a golf ball hit off center (slice= outside>inside=cw rotation= right drift) moves offline.(also contrary to some popular theory).
A disk rotating more quickly IS more stable laterally. This intrinsic stability is the reason for slappers etc..the wheel wants to go in one direction but is being forced in another...Also note that stunters often use a drive to rotate the front wheel even when not in contact with the ground to provide stability to extended wheelies..especially low speed wheelies.
Counter rotating rotors being near the center of rotation would have less effect than the larger wheel...that said negating the 2 disks at the center would be significantly less than adding both of them. For optimal effect the counter rotating parts would need to be of equivilent mass to both the wheel entire and forward rotating disk.
I think this is a plus and minus type design..removing the rotating mass has both a positive and negative effect..(newtons law of an object in motion staying in motion and the law of equal and opposite force play here). It seems you would gain neutrality to the front end in a tight course with many rapid direction changes the difference could be a benefit. On a faster track it could be a hindrance...And a bike drifting through a corner rear end sliding is dependant on the front end stability and a bike on the verge of highside/lowside is also dependent on the bikes inherant tendency to stand up and go straight ("stability") to "make it though".
Add to this pieces parts, wheight, maint, and very likely a requirement to "relearn" how the bike will behave/how to ride will make this idea a very slow sell...In the end it will wind up being rider preference...Selling/marketing that will be very hard.
p.s. sorry for the spelling errors, it's late...
 
#22 ·
I'm not sure I'm sold on the greatness of the idea for the reasons sk66 mentions.

As far as getting rich, maybe, but there's as good as a chance of not. Like alternative front susensions, there have been a bunch of good ideas that never got past the proto stage or low volume production.

A patent is only as good as it's written, and if not properly applied for globally you'll have very limited protection. Let's hope that it's not the biggest thing for scooters and low end 125cc bikes, because China doesn't believe in patents, copyright or any intellectual property laws...
 
#24 ·
One of the biggest problems I see with the design that hasn't been mentioned yet is the added mass of the system. Reducing the gyroscopic effect by counter-rotating the disks is fine, but the addition of additional sprung mass is not. Ideally, for the suspension to work well, the unsprung mass should remain very low compared to the sprung mass. This allows the suspension, and ultimately the tire to follow the road surface. Needless to say, loosing tire/road contact is bad! This also has a dependence on speed, where the higher the suspension frequency, the worse the suspension will perform.

Now for the design... I am speculating a bit based on the background pictures. It looks as though he is using a planetary set-up where the sun gear has four small splines which I assume are to keep the sun gear stationary relative to the axle. I am a little concerned by the small spline geometry and wonder if it will hold up for an infinite life cycle (I'm not sure but have reservations). I assume he's done the appropriate stress analysis to support his design but...

What I think is a better design is the Hossack type suspension running steeper rake with traditional trail values. This will result in lighter more responsive steering while remaining lighter than either the telescopic forks or the C-R disk systems. Anyway, just my 2cents worth...
 
#25 ·
rcrob said:
One of the biggest problems I see with the design that hasn't been mentioned yet is the added mass of the system. Reducing the gyroscopic effect by counter-rotating the disks is fine, but the addition of additional sprung mass is not. Ideally, for the suspension to work well, the unsprung mass should remain very low compared to the sprung mass. This allows the suspension, and ultimately the tire to follow the road surface. Needless to say, loosing tire/road contact is bad! This also has a dependence on speed, where the higher the suspension frequency, the worse the suspension will perform.
what's strange is that on the web page, they claim to be lighter weight than normal.

The only thing I could figure is that they were comparing their propritary wheel and rotor combo to a stock set-up....but that wheel is absolutely NOT compatable with mass production/cost ratios...

Now for the design... I am speculating a bit based on the background pictures. It looks as though he is using a planetary set-up where the sun gear has four small splines which I assume are to keep the sun gear stationary relative to the axle. I am a little concerned by the small spline geometry and wonder if it will hold up for an infinite life cycle (I'm not sure but have reservations). I assume he's done the appropriate stress analysis to support his design but...
THESE test results would be critical, but they aren't mentioned or located anywhere on his web page.
 
#26 ·
He mentions that the discs are spinning faster in reverse than the wheel is spinning forward. This makes sense considering his goal of canceleing the forward rotating mass of the wheel, but you'd be giving up more horsepower on accelleration than a standard brake setup to get the discs spun up. When adding to that the inevitable gear reduction losses, I think racers might get sceptical. That said, I think it's a cool gizmo and I'd love to at least try it.
 
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