[fighterpilot]

Anyone using PCV with AutoTune? If so, what is your set up (slip ons, ProTune, etc.) and what are your results?

 

[flynbulldog]

You do understand that it won't tune anything in the closed loop operation range, right?
That's why none of us are running out to get these things.

 

[fighterpilot]

You do understand that it won't tune anything in the closed loop operation range, right?
That's why none of us are running out to get these things.

I understand that it needs to be used with something such as the ProTune reflash, that's why I'm asking about set up, maybe I needed to be a little clearer on that point...

The following quote is from the PC website:

Note: Power Commander will NOT allow fuel adjustment below 19% throttle and below 5250rpm unless you have the DP ECU.

I'm still seeking that elusive, cost effective solution to the fueling issue on the SF.

 

[cts]

first you need a DP ECU that usually comes with the termis (right?) and then you can add the PCV with autotune and you can change the closed loop operation range...if i am wrong pls correct me people...

 

[jones525]

A DP ECU is required

first you need a DP ECU that usually comes with the termis (right?) and then you can add the PCV with autotune and you can change the closed loop operation range...if i am wrong pls correct me people...

To take full advantage of a Power Commander III or V installation. Otherwise you cannot tune below 19% throttle or 5250rpm. Here is a quote from Bucknut, a slight threadjack on a Protune thread...

"This is more of a review of the Power Commander V AutoTune than it is of the ProTune. The ProTune is effective at remapping your ECU and disabiling the stock 02 sensors - making the bike able to run in open loop. The map that comes with it did not fix the fueling problems on my Streetfighter. This is compared to the DP ECU. Both were marginally better than stock. I have the full Termi exhaust kit. After reading Kel3AT's review, I purchased the Power Commander V with the AutoTune kit. I have been messing around with it for a couple of weeks now and I have to say that I am thoroughly impressed. Right now I am about 99% satisfied with the way the bike runs and you can't believe that it didn't run that way from the factory. If you crack the throttle on this bike under 4,000, the front wheel is in your face instantly - no hesitation and bull. The proof of the problems is in the AutoTune map - the device is adding lots of fuel under about 4,500 rpm's - in some cases 150% more. Interestly enough, at full throttle there have been minor adjustments - as well as at higher rpm's at smaller adjustments. Obviously this is why my bike performed well on the dyno and peak power was there. However, the driveability was horrible (smaller throttle openings, lower rpm) - essentially where you live on the street. I absolutely love the idea that the fueling is constantly being adapted to accomodate for variations such as winter fuel vs. summer fuel and any additional modifications that may be done to the bike (ie., performance intake scoops). The way I have it set up now, I am mapping both cylinders off of the back cylinder. I pulled the sparkplug on the front cylinder and this appears to be running ok. I have the Power Commander set up to run a different map for each gear and its interesting to see the variation based on what gear you are in. I don't think I will go through the effort to map for each cylinder. Install is a little time consuming - however nothing out of control...and their tech support was helpful and Kel3AT clued me in to the Termi O2 bungs needing to be opened up to fit the Bosch wide-band sensor. Bottom line, I came back from riding the other day and finally was really pleased with the way the bike ran for the first time. I'm sure there will be more cost effective options - maybe the MicroTec? However, I am very impressed with the AutoTune feature and I've had a blast doing my own tuning. When I add my DP intake scoops, I won't have to go for another dyno run to optimize...just go for a ride."

Here is the URL where I found the above text > http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=71750&page=5

Here is another thread that explains, in detail, a powercommander V on an 1198>
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=71668

Also, I was in Vegas for a weekend to visit with my brother who has a tuned 848 (by Powercommander in Vegas) with an Arrow system, a DP ECU and a Power Commander. The driveability was nothing short of amazing. None of the usual suspects, bucking, stuttering, popping, etc... I rode the 848 for about 100 miles and it was all I could talk about when we stopped for lunch.

As I am planning on installing a PCV over the winter and having it tuned at a PC center, I have a thread regarding this very topic on this forum> http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=72498

Finally, I am considering the autotune option as well, mostly due to bucknut's review. I like the idea that the bike is always on the dyno, and any changes will be compensated for without the need for trip after trip to a tuning center. (As I write this Dynojet has the lock on this technology) So i'll install the PCV, load a zero map, then have it dynoed at an authorized PC center to ballpark the tune, I'll make a copy of the tune map and save it, then install the autotune and see what changes it recommends.

I have a few questions regarding the Autotune install... In order to extract the full benefit from this system, it would be best to have a wideband sensor on each cylinder, this way, each cylinder could be tuned individually. I called Dynojet and asked them if I could use two universal kits. They said yes but I would have to weld in bungs etc... I believe that I could use the stock o2 locations as the DP ECU ignores the input from the stock narrow band sensors. My question is this, does anyone know if unpluging the stock o2's from the harness would throw a check engine light? If so, is there an "o2 eliminator" that would prevent the check engine light from occuring?

 

[flynbulldog]

first you need a DP ECU that usually comes with the termis (right?) and then you can add the PCV with autotune and you can change the closed loop operation range...if i am wrong pls correct me people...

Here's the problem CTS - the pc will not adjust any settings while in closed loop operation. traditionally a DP ECU would completely eliminate any closed loop operation but the new DP ECU's (all09 and later models) seem to now operate in the same manner as the stock ECU with a portion of the rpm range in closed loop.

For these later bikes I've not read anything that tells me if the PCV will work in the lower RPM ranges even with a DP ECU.

Therefore a protune, tuneboy, or custom reflash seems like the best option at this point

Jones, it seems that you are missing some information, the New ECU's use the 02 sensors and do operate in a closed loop mode as do the stock ECUs. There is no 02 eliminator available as of yet. (but I believe dynojet has a prototype).

For these new bikes a DP ECU and PCV will not solve our problems.

 

[u235rh]

Here's the problem CTS - the pc will not adjust any settings while in closed loop operation. traditionally a DP ECU would completely eliminate any closed loop operation but the new DP ECU's (all09 and later models) seem to now operate in the same manner as the stock ECU with a portion of the rpm range in closed loop.

For these later bikes I've not read anything that tells me if the PCV will work in the lower RPM ranges even with a DP ECU.

Therefore a protune, tuneboy, or custom reflash seems like the best option at this point

Jones, it seems that you are missing some information, the New ECU's use the 02 sensors and do operate in a closed loop mode as do the stock ECUs. There is no 02 eliminator available as of yet. (but I believe dynojet has a prototype).

For these new bikes a DP ECU and PCV will not solve our problems.

Hi all. I've been haunting this forum silently for some time trying to absorb all the great info you all have to offer about the 'Fighter.

Flynbulldog, the Powercommander site says "Product Notes / Warnings
Note: Power Commander will NOT allow fuel adjustment below 19% throttle and below 5250rpm unless you have the DP ECU." (This is referring to the PC V). Will it still not solve low RPM lean fueling with Termi's and DP ECU? The site sure does lead one to believe that it would. Curious to hear your and everyone else's thoughts.

 

[jones525]

Additional info:

"Okay, after talking to 2 dealers and power commander, this is what I've found (and, as I thought):

The DP ECU *turns off* the closed loop system. The closed loop system is still connected, still on the bike, but it's turned off witht the DP ECU, as that over-rides the signal coming back to the ECU. Same thing as the 848/1098/1198 bikes.

The reason why we're still having this discussion, is that the SF is very new, and nobody has bought a PC V for one yet. If you have a SF and you're in SoCal, I can get you in touch with best tuner out here in the west. Now, if you're far away or at altitude and don't know of a good tuner, than go ahead and pick up the AutoTune option (which allows your bike to be automatically tuned and maped as you ride).

Also, power commander is based out of Las Vegas, so if you're around there, go down to the shop and give them a visit."

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?p=686792#post686792

I too called Dynojet and asked the same questions and received the same answers. "Are you able to completely tune (from idle to redline at all throttle positions) a DP ECU with a Power Commander V?" and "Are the stock narrow band sensors deactivated with a DP ECU?" The answer was yes on both accounts. Hence my earlier question about o2 eliminators, I want to use the stock locations for the widebands and I dont want the stock o2's swinging in the breeze or I don't want to stare at a CEL.

In fact, I believe we have proof that with a DP ECU that the o2's are deactivated. In my earlier post, in the quoted section, bucknut removed one of the stock o2's in order to use the bung for a wideband. We dont know if the Ducati narrowband was disconnected from the harness, but I'm sure that bucknut would have mentioned a CEL during his tuning process. The point is, when the engine is running, the Ducati narrowband o2 expects to see a certian A/F range. One that it couldnot measure while removed from the exhaust pipe. Bucknut also mentioned that he left the lower Ducati o2 in place. I would assume that the ECU would detect a large variance in mixture from cylinder to cylinder and things would not run correctly.

What say you flyinbulldog? What are your sources? Did you call Dynojet and receive conflicting info? Do you know something we all don't?

Thanks!

 

[ttpete]

I've been using a PC V with Autotune all summer on a Kaw Versys, so I have a bit of experience with them. The Kaw originally has no O2 sensor, so is open loop. I installed a fuel map for the closest setup to what I have (Leo Vince), and the Autotune reads the A/F ratio and alters that fuel map. Its range is restricted to 20% + or -, so after running for awhile, I plug the laptop in and pull up the offset table and accept the offsets. This incorporates them into the map and then zeros out the offset table. After doing this a few times, the offsets become less and less as the map approaches the ideal setup. The point I'm trying to make here is that the Autotune effectively converts the system to a type of closed loop operation and would do the same with the stock Ducati ECU, even in the lower RPM range. The PC V alone without the Autotune would not do this. I've had good success with it, and all of the fueling problems associated with the stock setup are now gone.

 

[flynbulldog]

I'm sorry, I don't believe that Dynojet nor some of the dealers are up to date with the latest release of the DP ECU.
You should hear some of the crap I've been told by Dealer techs...

My only evidence is the fact that the new Termi comes with bungs for the o2 sensors and requires that they be installed.
All of the pre 09 Termi systems came with a cap for the electrical connection and installation included removing the 02 sensors.

Why would the sensors suddenly be required? If a tuner has installed a pc with a 2010 model bike and a DP ECU and can tell me for sure
if those function have been resolved I'd like to hear about it.

ttpete, sorry friend it doesn't work that way, The 02 sensor will try to compensate for anything that the autotune does.
It works on your kwaker because it's all open loop. Ducs are problematic with their stupid narrow band o2 sensors and the partial closed loop programing.

 

[jones525]

Thanks for the input!

I've been using a PC V with Autotune all summer on a Kaw Versys, so I have a bit of experience with them. The Kaw originally has no O2 sensor, so is open loop. I installed a fuel map for the closest setup to what I have (Leo Vince), and the Autotune reads the A/F ratio and alters that fuel map. Its range is restricted to 20% + or -, so after running for awhile, I plug the laptop in and pull up the offset table and accept the offsets. This incorporates them into the map and then zeros out the offset table. After doing this a few times, the offsets become less and less as the map approaches the ideal setup. The point I'm trying to make here is that the Autotune effectively converts the system to a type of closed loop operation and would do the same with the stock Ducati ECU, even in the lower RPM range. The PC V alone without the Autotune would not do this. I've had good success with it, and all of the fueling problems associated with the stock setup are now gone.

I have no doubt that the PCV will solve my issues and work for me as well as it worked for you. The big difference between your Kaw and my Ducati is that there are two ECU's available. The stock one is not tunable in the areas of concern (Unlike your stock ECU) and the Ducati Performance ECU is required to achieve results like yours. Thanks again for your input, I look forward to your results on my bike!

 

[flynbulldog]

It's really a moot point for me anyway, the cost of the DP ECU and the PCV and Aoutotune is way beyond reasonable.

A custom reflash or a Tuneboy is a far better way to go IMO.

 

[ttpete]

I have no doubt that the PCV will solve my issues and work for me as well as it worked for you. The big difference between your Kaw and my Ducati is that there are two ECU's available. The stock one is not tunable in the areas of concern (Unlike your stock ECU) and the Ducati Performance ECU is required to achieve results like yours. Thanks again for your input, I look forward to your results on my bike!

The PC V with Autotune bypasses the ECU. It ties in between the main harness and injectors and modifies the pulse width to correct the A/F ratio. The DP ECU doesn't know that the PC is doing this because it has no O2 sensor input. The Euro Versys is closed loop with an O2 sensor, and Dynojet makes a sensor eliminator that plugs into the original harness connector and fools the ECU into thinking it's still connected. I see no reason that the same thing wouldn't work on a stock Duc ECU.

 

[flynbulldog]

The PC V with Autotune bypasses the ECU. It ties in between the main harness and injectors and modifies the pulse width to correct the A/F ratio. The DP ECU doesn't know that the PC is doing this because it has no O2 sensor input. The Euro Versys is closed loop with an O2 sensor, and Dynojet makes a sensor eliminator that plugs into the original harness connector and fools the ECU into thinking it's still connected. I see no reason that the same thing wouldn't work on a stock Duc ECU.

I'm sorry that is not correct.

What pulse width does it modify from the "main harness"? Oh right, the pulse width from the ECU...

The PCV is a piggyback unit, it alters the signal given by the ECU to change parameters - nothing else. It cannot function on it's own. The autotune does nothing more than read 02 and adjust to a given ratio.

Dynojet does not make an 02 eliminator for Ducati as of yet.

Dude it don't fuckin work! ok?

 

[fighterpilot]

I see no reason that the same thing wouldn't work on a stock Duc ECU.

Well, one reason would be that the PC website states that a DP ECU is required...that's good enough for me...

 

[cts]

I have something to add that may help you out here.
A friend did get a full termi system with the DP ecu. The bike does run open loop BUT the sensors must be kept installed to the bike. If they are disconnected ther "check engine" light stays always ON.
My friend has the O2 sensors removed and has the check engine light always on, he doesnt mind...the thing is the bike works OK (proof its on an open loop mode) and he says that it runs very smoothly and cant be compared with stock bike settings...

so i think that with a DP ECU and a PC we can make a perfect map...

I have to add to that that when i had my kawasaki, i removed the O2 sensor and had a O2 sensor eliminator installed from dynojet...
the thing is that even with the 02 sensor eliminator installed, when cruising at constant speed with more than 5.500 RPM the "check engine" light went on...so i think its basically the same thing...

 

[flynbulldog]

I have something to add that may help you out here.
A friend did get a full termi system with the DP ecu. The bike does run open loop BUT the sensors must be kept installed to the bike. If they are disconnected ther "check engine" light stays always ON.
My friend has the O2 sensors removed and has the check engine light always on, he doesnt mind...the thing is the bike works OK (proof its on an open loop mode) and he says that it runs very smoothly and cant be compared with stock bike settings...

so i think that with a DP ECU and a PC we can make a perfect map...

Look, I don't know the answer but why would the o2 sensors need to be installed in a system that doesn't use them - a system with it's own ECU? Just to shut off a CEL?

Doesn't make sense. Until someone who I trust is in the know can explain to
me why the new ECU needs the o2 sensors I'm going to believe its because they are being used.

If I could get hold of a PCV and a DP ECU I'd take it down to Boulder Motorsports and put it on the dyno and check it out.

 

[cts]

maybe they must be installed because there is a system that just checks their presence, even if they are not used by the ecu...this is what the O2 sensor eliminator does if you think about it...it just sends a false reading to the ecu just as if O2 sensor was connected and functioning like it should...

i understand the way you think, but all the feedback we are geting does make sense...i tell you a friend of mine with full termis and DP ecu runs the bike WITHOUT the o2 sensors...he doesnt care that the check engine light is on all the time and he doesnt even have them on...
if the bike runs smooth without them then you dont have reasons to believe that it is not functioning as an open loop system...he doesnt want to make it even smoother with a PC...he likes it as it is, so he didnt install a PC as well..but there are no O2 sensors on...thats for sure!

 

[eericc]

The reason why we're still having this discussion, is that the SF is very new, and nobody has bought a PC V for one yet. If you have a SF and you're in SoCal, I can get you in touch with best tuner out here in the west. Now, if you're far away or at altitude and don't know of a good tuner, than go ahead and pick up the AutoTune option (which allows your bike to be automatically tuned and maped as you ride).

If a tuner has installed a pc with a 2010 model bike and a DP ECU and can tell me for sure
if those function have been resolved I'd like to hear about it.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the Autotune effectively converts the system to a type of closed loop operation and would do the same with the stock Ducati ECU, even in the lower RPM range. The PC V alone without the Autotune would not do this. I've had good success with it, and all of the fueling problems associated with the stock setup are now gone.

I'm with Flyn on this one. I have the Termi slip-ons which come with the DP ECU and I also have the PCV installed, sans Autotune. Tuner created a custom map and I still have the 3500 rpm fueling issues. Tuner says he can't tune in that range... Tuner's been creating maps for over a decade. Just saw him create a map for a K1200 with a PCIII. The owner downloaded a map for his bike and it wasn't running smoothly. Bike gained 9 rwhp and is now much smoother.

Unless the DP ECU for the slip-ons is completely different from the one for the full Termi syst, I won't invest in the Autotune component for the PCV. I'll wait until/if Dynojet creates a true O2 eliminator for the SF, and in the meantime, I'll live with the 3500 rpm "un-sweet" spot...

 

[S.E.]

the reason why people still have the problem at certin rpm is it is not a fueling issue. i have been on this forum for a few months and have read pros and cons to a few systems you gentlemen talk about. the power commander only addresses the afr and thats it. surging issues and other similar issues must be delt with in timing. until a system can give us access to the timing isues then some bikes will have isues and some wont.
i was under the impression that the race dp ecu from ducati and their system allowed the dyno tuner to adjust timing for each cylinder and then trim everything as a whole . but i was wrong the dp ecu had short comings as well. .
has any company ben able to give the tuner to access to most of the parameters needed to properly tune the bike yet????
i know power commander has not.
the only tuner that i have came across is for harley davidson its called a TTS made by master tune and it gives tuners access to everything they need to tune heavily modified to stock bikes to a T. ill try calling them and see if they are going to have something for the ducati. if there is alot of demand for it i am sure maybe they will look into it.
i am going to give Steve Cole a call on monday to talk to him about it
i am in the process of selling my bike to purchase a street fighter thats themain reason i am interested in tuning it properly
here is a link to thse TTS web site
http://www.mastertune.net/index.html