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EightfortyEight posted a CAD file of the TPS mount he developed for his FE restoration. A link is in that thread and the file can be used to 3D print a part. I think he is using separate FCR carbs, but perhaps it will work for racked carbs as well
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Fastbikegear

Are you going to develop a tps mounting system for the FCRs since Cosentino Engineering doesn't appear to be around anymore? Would you have a contact number for them possibly?
No. I just made mine for my own use. It is not going to be a production unit. I haven't ever dealt with Cosentino engineering so I don't have any contacts for them. I think they developed their system independently from mine, I think their design was both different and probably better than mine.

The Frankencati is pretty much complete now.....But I have one last project I want to do before I move on which is to build and test a cam wheel driven hall effect ignition pick-up system to see if their is any further advantage to getting rid of the wasted spark with my existing ignition setup and also to see if I get even more accurate timing with the hall effect pick-ups.

Parts arrived for this project today and new project bike arrives later this week!
 

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Discussion Starter #63 (Edited)
Some pics on progress of hall effect pick up system driven off the central cam wheel.
 

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Picking up the ignition signal from the cam drive is what is blamed for the 3400rpm hiccup on SSie and 748/916s. Apparently a resonance issue. I had the driven gear off a couple of months ago and it rang like a bell when I tapped it. Everybody in the workshop was fasinated! I might get round to glueing rubber pads into the two holes to act as dampers - we'll see.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Picking up the ignition signal from the cam drive is what is blamed for the 3400rpm hiccup on SSie and 748/916s. Apparently a resonance issue. I had the driven gear off a couple of months ago and it rang like a bell when I tapped it. Everybody in the workshop was fasinated! I might get round to glueing rubber pads into the two holes to act as dampers - we'll see.
We are picking up off the cam wheel with our Hall effect system not the cam gear. We are primarily doing this because it's easier to retrofit a rotor to the cam wheel on the earlier bikes than convert them to the later Fuel Injected cam gear hall effect triggers.

Not sure how sound resonance could effect magnetic fields? Hall effect sensors are triggered by disturbance to a magnetic field.

I have set up an Ignitech on a later model 750 fuel injected engine that was converted to carburettors and I have heard no reports from the race team that there was any issue with a hiccup at 3400 RPM or there abouts.

One such bike I recently worked on has absolutely no flywheel (it's been totally removed) and it has no hiccup that I know of at 3400rpm. It has other issues at the moment (at much higher revs after a few laps) but I am guessing it's a fuel starvation problem on this particular race bike.

The pickup used on the fuel injected bikes is not my favourite setup for Ignitechs. The pickup used requires a special version of the Ignitech's to work. And I don't think triggering of gear teeth is the best way to do things. A comment made by one of the Ignitech staff recently seemed to suggest they found this pickup finicky to set up the Ignitech's input circuitry for, but given the language barrier I may have misinterpreted his comment. It may also be that the physical positioning of this sensor relative to the cam gear teeth is finicky but I haven't tried playing with shims to move it's position.
 

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The explaination I have for the hiccup is that there is an alogrythm in the ECU software that decides if the engine is accelerating or decceleration. If there is too much wear in the 1/2 time shaft then there can be a resonance at 3400rpm that confuses the ECU.

Sound is caused by vibration. Have a look on Youtube for something that shows a bell struck and illuminated by a strobe at about the frequency the bell is ringing. You might be surprised by the flex in the bell. I propose that vibration in the gear at 3400rpm is a harmonic of the gear's resonant frequency.

The fueling and ignition can be adjusted to almost remove the hiccup and a MOSFET regulator almost removes it completely.
 

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Discussion Starter #68 (Edited)
The explaination I have for the hiccup is that there is an alogrythm in the ECU software that decides if the engine is accelerating or decceleration. If there is too much wear in the 1/2 time shaft then there can be a resonance at 3400rpm that confuses the ECU.

Sound is caused by vibration. Have a look on Youtube for something that shows a bell struck and illuminated by a strobe at about the frequency the bell is ringing. You might be surprised by the flex in the bell. I propose that vibration in the gear at 3400rpm is a harmonic of the gear's resonant frequency.

The fueling and ignition can be adjusted to almost remove the hiccup and a MOSFET regulator almost removes it completely.
If the problem you encountered is caused by a mechanical resonance causing an issue with a pickup, then I don't see how adjusting the fuelling or a change to a MOSFET regulator would fix an erratic pickup signal caused by this mechanical resonance? If a MOSFET regulator fixes the problem then surely the problem isn't likely to be a mechanical resonance one?

Yes it's plausible (but not likely) that a mechanical resonance could cause issues with the pickup, but the cure would not be to adjust fuelling or change the regulator.

There are lots of other electrical and magnetic factors such as hystereisis or even resonance in the electrical circuit (that you definitely wouldn't hear) that are more likely to cause issues. I would think you would need a scope with a good bandwidth and sampling rate to observe and analyse these issues.

As they say 'you never know what you don't know' so maybe I am missing something in your explanation.
 

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I went through that reasoning myself. Then I got a bit deeper.

The fueling/ignition adjustments made my bikes run a bit smoother so that might help reduce any resonance. As for the MOSFET regulator. This made the bikes A LOT more pleasant - especially the SS. My suspicion is that the original regulator was not intended for bikes with fuel injection and so probably doesn't have a very smooth voltage. The MOSFET regulator was meant for a Yamaha R1 which has fuel injection and so should have a smoother voltage more suited to giving the sensors a clean supply. I would expect this to help the ECU make up its mind which way the acceleration is going with more accuracy. I should probably have rigged up the sillyscope and had a look at what really was happening :eek: Curiosity might get the better of me again here.
 

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The explaination I have for the hiccup is that there is an alogrythm in the ECU software that decides if the engine is accelerating or decceleration. If there is too much wear in the 1/2 time shaft then there can be a resonance at 3400rpm that confuses the ECU.

Sound is caused by vibration. Have a look on Youtube for something that shows a bell struck and illuminated by a strobe at about the frequency the bell is ringing. You might be surprised by the flex in the bell. I propose that vibration in the gear at 3400rpm is a harmonic of the gear's resonant frequency.

The fueling and ignition can be adjusted to almost remove the hiccup and a MOSFET regulator almost removes it completely.
All this was interesting but I did laugh when I read your signature, "It called a bloody oil GALLERY!" :)
 

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Discussion Starter #71
I went through that reasoning myself. Then I got a bit deeper....
Thank you.

I always use the Shindingen FH020 regulators as replacements because they run cooler and I can relocate them out of the weather in places like the battery box (where I currently have mine). And yes they have a relatively stable output which I think helps the ECUs behave nicely. I also have a Stonk MegaBooster in my bike which stabilises the voltage very nicely!!

The Hall effect devices we are using in our system will operate from a very wide range of voltage supply and also have an inbuilt voltage regulator. (belts and braces!).
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Nice.
Is it operational yet?
How long you expect the testing to take?


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Nope not operational yet. I need to wire the sensors in to the Ignitech. Going to be busy over the next few days with a couple of customers bikes and will get back to it next week.

Testing should only take one good bike ride and a bit of time with the scope. My current ignition system is fairly upgraded (four very fast rise time coils), Ignitech, FBG UltraRace leads and twin plug conversion. This setup on my bike is to test the system before putting it on a couple of customers race bikes.
 

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Discussion Starter #76
You have a ballpark idea of your selling price for the kit?
No not yet. For this first version one of my customers has 3D printed the cover and the hall effect mounts which clip into the back of it. For future versions I will need to use a 3D printing service so I don't know what the costs will be for that. The materials used including the hall effect units are pretty cheap.

I have had Ignitech build a special version of the Ignitech optimised for our Hall effect sensors and it looks like the cost of these will be very similar to the standard Ignitechs. (I have also built and bench tested a small external interface circuit for customers who already have standard Ignitechs)

In this first version I have machined the rotor and rotor clamp but we can either machine or print these two parts as well and I need to compare the cost of both options.
 

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Interested to see the results when it's running Liam.
Might you get some flutter on the timing through backlash on the 2:1 reduction gears?
 

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Discussion Starter #78
Interested to see the results when it's running Liam.
Might you get some flutter on the timing through backlash on the 2:1 reduction gears?
I don't expect any backlash induced flutter under drive. On throttling off it is possible but it would be fairly small (in degrees of crank shaft rotation) and not so much of interest in throttle off conditions.

One of the reasons for trying this is the erratic timing uncertainty (flutter) inherent in Hall effect devices... and my scepticism of the accuracy (probably unfounded) of the Ducati hall effect set up in later bikes where they use a hall effect device to count teeth on the cam drive gear.

....but then this is the purpose of prototype testing to find out what I don't know what I don't know. The Donald Rumsfield engineering dictum.
 

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Discussion Starter #79 (Edited)
Mounted Hall Effect cam wheel driven pick up system on the bike today and took it I for a good test ride today.

Ignitech have made me a special version of the Ignitech units to work with this system. But I have also made up an interface circuit so that I can use this system with the standard Ignitech units.

Bike has been running very well lately (since I upgraded to running a coil per plug on my twin plug heads) so I wasn't really expecting much.

When I first started it up from dead cold it seemed perhaps if anything to not start as briskly as usual (but pretty hard to say and the bike has been sitting for a couple of weeks) and it appeared to idle as per normal.

When I put the timing light on it the idle timing was as rock stable as normal. But when I revved it in the garage it seemed smoother than normal. But I thought maybe that was just confirmation bias.

Out on the road....WOW.....The bike has always been smooth but this was at whole new level. At 3800 rpm in top gear I have been able to detect a very slight engine roughness...not now it is silk smooth everywhere. Smoother than my Panigale 899.

OK so roll on the throttle at anywhere from 3000 to 4500 rpm (and remember I have been riding a Panigale for the last few weeks). Holly shit! It just instantly goes...and I mean really goes. So I just ride along enjoying this and then think I will change up to 6th gear only to discover I have been riding along in 6th gear all along.

OK so get a clear piece of road drop it back to 3rd gear and wind on the throttle 4000 going well, 5000 rpm excellent 6000 rpm (great) and then it just starts going really HARD all the way to 8000 rpm. It has always been better to short shift at around 6500 rpm in the past because not a whole more advantage in revving it....not now. The trip from 6000 rpm is definitely worth it. Remember this bike still runs standard cams.

So summary:

Performance from 5000 to 6000 rpm which has always been it's sweet spot is slightly better than before.

Performance from 3000 to 5000 rpm is in a whole different league to what it was before.

Performance from 6000 rpm to 8000 rpm is now intoxicating....and a good way to kiss goodbye to my license.

So now from 3000 rpm to 8000 rpm is fantastic. It feels brutally fast from 3000 rpm to 6500 rpm compared to my Panigale 899 (at about 6500 rpm the Panigale is just beginning to come on song and from 8000 rpm onwards the Panigale will destroy it as is to be expected, but it makes the Panigale feel positively feeble in the lower revs where I ride on the road.

Smoothness is just unbelievable, it's smoother than the Panigale from 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm.

Can you tell I am happy?

My engine project is now finished. I want nothing more from this now......A stiffer frame around the steering head and stiffer triple clamps....now that would be nice.

Some lighter fairings ...well yes maybe.

I have started a new thread on the cam wheel non wasted spark ignition project here: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/473858-cam-wheel-driven-non-wasted-spark-ignition-project.html
 
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