[JohnMH]

Some may have been following my thread concering my 2006 999R with the TPS issue. I have learned a great deal in the last few weeks about the 999, and in particular its electronics.

I thought I might share a bit of what I have learned and ask for confirmation from someone on the site who knows more than I do (not hard to do).

The original symptom was a misfire, no idle and running very lean, like it was running on one cylinder.

The bike is a blueprinted 999R with pistal high comp pistons, a full Akro prototype exhaust, corsa air inlets and race air filters. A power commander was fitted but no maps exist for this application, so I was running a "zero" map, ie stock.

Using the left button turn key technique I learned that the bike showed error code 1.2 - there was a short to ground on the TPS. I tore apart my wiring harness looking for a short and found none. I removed the power commander. I removed the ECU and unplugged everything I could in my search for that short and found nothing. I replaced the ignition relay to try to cure the problem without joy.

I let a so called "expert" at a local shop swap out parts from a 999S to try to isolate the problem (no luck but maybe a major headache).

I then reassembled everything and found that I had a new problem. Error 37 was coming up, the security code in the key was not unlocking the ECU to run the bike.

At this point I did a track day on a GSXR 1000 to motivate me to fix the 999.

Next day I took the bike to an ex-dealer and borrowed their DDS machine. Using the error code self diagnostic function I still found that the TPS error existed (1.2 - an error in connection B3-E20-E32) as well as an immobilizer transponder failure (37.0 - error in connection D15-B7). Now the fun began.

By clearing all the error codes I achieved nothing. Both 1.2 and 37.0 returned when I turned the key on and re interrogated the ECU. I then reset the TPS and magically, the 1.2 error regarding the short to TPS disappeared. My suspicion is that something bad happened in the many times I disconnected and reconnected the power commander.

The issue with the security code continued. I used the DDS to enter the 5 digit code from the card which came with the bike to override the immobilizer). Wonder of wonders, the bike started and ran pretty well, the idle was a bit low however, it could be that the TPS was not at true zero when I reset it). That end run of the immobilizer only works with the DDS machine. To have it fixed permanently I need the keys reprogrammed. The twist throttle / flashing EOBD light trick did nothing for me as the light would not switch off after the 8 second wait with the throttle open 100%. This could be because the bike now has a quick turn throttle which has not been adjusted properly to hit 100% open (I need to check that).

The red key does nothing for me either (as mentioned the problem may be due to the throttle).

Finally, the shop which tried to fix it may have messed it up more. With all the part swapping they tried, I worry that they left a 999S ECU on my bike. I also worry that by removing the ECU I will have to visit the ex dealer again to reset the TPS and will have to reset the key code.

Anyone swapping ECU's please note the security code is not in the ECU or in the ring surrounding the ignition key, it is in the instrument cluster which is matched to the key.

So. A few questions:

If the code is in the instrument cluster, why does the key need to be re entered when the ECU is swapped, or ever removed and reinstalled (or does it? I have a 2008 D16RR, swapping the ECU (I have 3 of them) does not affect the security code at all, but the manual calls for a TPS zero reset). In theory removing and reinstalling the same ECU should not require a TPS reset, or?

Will a 2005 999S ECU run a 2006 999R? If so, how can I tell which one is in there? The 999R should have a Ducati Performance I.A.W. 5AM2 ECU.

If I pull the battery and unplug the TPS to install a power commander, will I have to reset the TPS?

Does pulling the battery require a TPS reset? I suspect not as the TPS zero setting is probably "flashed" onto the ECU by the DDS machine when you do a TPS reset.

If I want to reset my TPS again, I can just overwrite it, or?

Maybe I just order the Nemesis ECU, but without a dyno and CO2 meter, how do you get close?

999, the number of the beast when it is upside down.

 

[tye1138]

Anyone swapping ECU's please note the security code is not in the ECU or in the ring surrounding the ignition key, it is in the instrument cluster which is matched to the key.

Its a closed-loop system. So your right, if the dash doesn't see the proper key, its not going to unlock the ECU. But the aftermarket ECU's don't have this issue because they don't look for that signal coming from the dash.

In theory removing and reinstalling the same ECU should not require a TPS reset, or?

No, the ECU can be unplugged and re-plugged back in again, without anything changing it.

Will a 2005 999S ECU run a 2006 999R?

Any testastretta ECU will run a 999R, but run and run properly are two different things. If you have the ability too re-map the ECU, then you can use any ECU you want. If not, you should really stick to an aftermarket ECU.

If so, how can I tell which one is in there? The 999R should have a Ducati Performance I.A.W. 5AM2 ECU.

Nope, not necessarily. Unless you had the ECU upgraded, the R ECU's look identical to the base ones. I had a stock ECU in my 749R when I bought it and I matched the number with the service manual to figure out which one it was.

If I pull the battery and unplug the TPS to install a power commander, will I have to reset the TPS?

I've never heard of this TPS issue. I've installed many power commanders into XX9 bikes, and I've removed many power commanders from XX9 bikes, never had an issue.

Does pulling the battery require a TPS reset? I suspect not as the TPS zero setting is probably "flashed" onto the ECU by the DDS machine when you do a TPS reset.

Nope

If I want to reset my TPS again, I can just overwrite it, or?

Yes, all you need to do is hit the button on the DDS machine and it will reset it. This is NOT a big deal and is probably not causing you an error.

Maybe I just order the Nemesis ECU, but without a dyno and CO2 meter, how do you get close?

Now your talkin'. Unless you have a way to re-program the stock ECU's, they're as good as trash. Take it, find the nearest trash can, insert the ECU into it and buy a Nemesis.

The Nemesis doesn't need a dyno to map properly. All you need is to understand how a dyno functions and do those tasks yourself. With the 02 sensor, find a long stretch of road and go through the gears slowly, just like a dyno. Your bike will be properly mapped if you do that, my map is right on the nose and thats all I did. Spark plugs always look the right color and the tops of the pistons arn't typical ducati black!

Also, with a Nemesis, you will bypass all the stupid key shit. Then, when you've got money, you can upgrade the dash to the falcon and all of a sudden, error messages can be understood! YES! The Falcon dash actually tells you the error message in english, so you can resolve it, without the needs of a Ducati computer. Plus, the Nemesis stores error messages, so you can check the log and find out exactly what's wrong.

I recently had a short circuit on my home-made wiring harness. The dash told me to look at the Nemesis log, I grabbed my computer, plugged it in and found out the problem. In 4 minutes it was fixed and I was back on the road. Good luck diagnosing a Ducati ECU on the road, without tuns of expensive computer's.

 

[Bella749]

If I pull the battery and unplug the TPS to install a power commander, will I have to reset the TPS?

Does pulling the battery require a TPS reset? I suspect not as the TPS zero setting is probably "flashed" onto the ECU by the DDS machine when you do a TPS reset.

The TPS reference doesn't erase if remove from battery power. Only thing you need to disconnect for the PC is the cable running into the airbox. Once you set up the throttle bodies and reference the TPS correctly, you shouldn't have to mess with it unless you have to readjust. This should be done for a baseline prior to installin/mapping a PC3

If I want to reset my TPS again, I can just overwrite it, or?

Yes

Maybe I just order the Nemesis ECU, but without a dyno and CO2 meter, how do you get close?

As I understand the Nemesis comes preloaded with base maps. Of course, so does the PC3, and we know how well those work

999, the number of the beast when it is upside down.

Must be a conspiracy :abduct:

 

[FuelIsFunToBurn]

As a consumer I can think of one thing the sycronized ECU, Instrument cluster and Key brings:

The tyical chop shop is not going to be able to for instance swap out a high mileage dash for a low mileage dash very easily.

Legitimate dealers have something to lose. My bet is few would participate if they thought somehting wasn't right.

 

[tye1138]

As I understand the Nemesis comes preloaded with base maps. Of course, so does the PC3, and we know how well those work

Actually, the Nemesis doesn't come programmed at all. There are a few maps available from MM competition systems, but they don't cover things like exhausts, timing changes, high comp pistions, race fuel, etc... My 749R wouldn't run at all with the base 749R map, it was a complete joke. I had to basically build my own map by hand until I got the 02 sensors working.

 

[Bella749]

Actually, the Nemesis doesn't come programmed at all. There are a few maps available from MM competition systems, but they don't cover things like exhausts, timing changes, high comp pistions, race fuel, etc... My 749R wouldn't run at all with the base 749R map, it was a complete joke. I had to basically build my own map by hand until I got the 02 sensors working.

"Of course, so does the PC3, and we know how well those work"

Gotcha Tye

 

[JohnMH]

So, from what I have learned from your responses (many thanks, I feel smarter already), I can assume a few things:

Regardless of how my key / immobilizer issue arose, the ecu is not at fault, if I am patient and have the code and red key, I can over come this with the twist grip work.

The Ducati performance ECU I am using is the one which came with the non cat 102db "race" slip on exhaust included with the bike. This is not likely even close to what that engine wants. Only custom map will provide what I need.

As for how to get that map, there seem to be 2 choices. First, to change air fuel ratio with a power commander. I have a PC3, but have no maps for it. I am also wary of just downloading a map someone wrote for their specific bike. Mine is only a track bike, operates in 100 degree heat, at sea level in high humidity, with flowed heads, high comp psitons and a very large prototype exhaust.

Are people generally happy with the PC3? I have bought a PC5 for my D16RR, but it may just stay in the box for now.

The second option is the nemesis ECU. JHP who built the engine suggest it is the best solution. not cheap, but as I already have about $60k sunk into this thing, what's $1200 more.

JHP might be able to provde a map which is close (they built an identical spec engine for a customer who won a European race series with it), and the Akro system does have CO2 meter bungs in it to get needed data. So a few questions:

If the nemesis uses the same wiring harness, how do I ditch the key and get a rubber toggle switch? Just cut and splice? Or does the nemesis falcon dash kit come with the switch?

Does the nemesis come with the oxygen sensors and wiring needed to set the mixture? I assume it comes with the software and wires to run its software on your laptop.

I assume the ignition timing is not something I have to learn to adjust as well?

I ride, check the air fuel ratio afterwards, adjust and repeat til satisfied?

This does not sound easy, but it would be nice to get more than 3 rides out of this thing in 3 years.

Can I call you guys if my D16RR starts to act up?

 

[tye1138]

Are people generally happy with the PC3? I have bought a PC5 for my D16RR, but it may just stay in the box for now.

I don't personally like the PC3. Its a poorly manufactured piece of shit that really doesn't belong mingling around in our bikes. Unlike Japanese bikes, Ducatisti have many options from re-programming the stock ECU to the Nemesis. So why go cheap and add a PC3? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I've owned 2, both failed on me and I ended up throwing one away and re-selling the other for parts. Power commander takes months to fix anything, so good luck if one fails. The PC5 does have some better tunability options on it, but its still junk compared to a Nemesis. And if you can't afford a Nemesis... well, ya might have thought twice about buying a 999R...

The second option is the nemesis ECU. JHP who built the engine suggest it is the best solution. not cheap, but as I already have about $60k sunk into this thing, what's $1200 more.

Not cheap? You've got a Desmosedici and a 999R. Shit, I'm broke and I had no problems picking up the Nemesis and Falcon dash.

If the nemesis uses the same wiring harness, how do I ditch the key and get a rubber toggle switch? Just cut and splice? Or does the nemesis falcon dash kit come with the switch?

Yes, the nemesis uses the standard wiring harness it is NOT compatible with the Ducati corse harness. The switch is a matter of either buying one and soldering it onto the existing harness OR buying a kit thats already made. I took the one off my 748 race bike and it fits my 749's harness perfectly.

The Falcon dash, doesn't have any switches, just programming buttons at the top.

Does the nemesis come with the oxygen sensors and wiring needed to set the mixture? I assume it comes with the software and wires to run its software on your laptop.

The Nemesis comes with an ECU and free software to program the ECU. Everything else is an add on, from the wiring for the 02 sensor, to the sensor itself. I have the complete kit, minus the speed shifter and it cost roughly $4000 after everything was said and done. Yes, thats a lot of money, but what you get in exchange is unlimited tuning, that in of itself is worth it for racers. If this is your street bike, I wouldn't bother.

I assume the ignition timing is not something I have to learn to adjust as well?

Not really, you can have someone else do that for ya.

I ride, check the air fuel ratio afterwards, adjust and repeat til satisfied?

You set the ECU to tune mode, unplug the PC computer from the ECU, go on a ride and when you come back, its tuned. All you have to do is save the tuned map to your PC to insure it doesn't get lost and then upload it to the ECU. It automatically compensates for the differences between the two cylinders, so all you really tune for is the vertical cylinder. You can get a dual 02 system, but its more money and why bother? The single 02 system does work fine.

Can I call you guys if my D16RR starts to act up?

It will start to act up eventually. I have a feeling Ducati is going to have a recall on them soon enough. It seems like every one I've seen burns oil and has bad rings... Thats not good when you've got 1500 of them floating around, all with 3 year warranties!

 

[safetyfish]

Order yourself a rectifier now and keep it as spare before the one on your D16 fails, and trust me it will fail with the heat we have in the Gulf.
The dealer in Dubai is not able to do any work on the D16 I am told, the closest mechanic is here in Doha and this is where the D16teens with terminal problems end up. There is one D16 in the shop here now with a blown engine. (redlined from day 1 and absolutely abused, no wonder it blew up if you see how the owner handled it)

Like Tye says, get yourself a Nemesis and take it from there on the 999.

The valve timing is easy enough once you get the hand of it, but I would rather have the dedicated OEM tool for doing that type of work. I got my tool from JHP for about Dhs1000 via Aramex. I am not a track rat so I am not too fussed getting it 1 or 2 degrees either way.

All the best getting it sorted.

SF

 

[JohnMH]

Thanks for the info. I need to speak to JHP about the nemesis when they open tomorrow, in essence the idea of plugging in a laptop, setting the ECU to tune mode, riding 2 laps of the track, coming in and downloading a good map sounds easily worth the money. I think I will start with the ECU and O2 sensor and all the wiring, once the 999 runs well I will order the dashboard (assuming I do not need it to bypass the immobilizer). With the frustration I have had with the bike, I will hold off on the dashboard until I see some progress on the ECU front. Two weeks ago I would have ditched it for the price of a new CBR1000RR. Alas, patience is a virtue learned slowly.

As for the D16RR, mine smokes slightly when cold, but then stops when it gets up to temp. It is not a street bike either and will never be licensed for road use. It runs like a train with the optional $8k exhaust on it. I love that bike but only get to use it on very rare occasions (daytime track days at the Dubai Autodrome when they run the longer configurations, about twice a year).

As for the dealer in the UAE, there is none whatsoever. My D16RR was the last new bike they sold before Ducati went to Al Fardan which has no presence here. There are 3 D16RRs in Dubai as far as I know, the other guy I know with one sent his to Doha to have the first 1000km service done and the non cat exhaust installed and they seem to have completely messed his bike up. He tried riding it at the last track day and just parked it in despair. He is now having the tech at the local Aprilia shop try his hand on it. With no DDS, I wish him luck.

If I need to I will send it to JHP or back to the factory for service, no way is it going to Doha, unless just to ride Losail. I do have access to a DDS machine with the latest D16RR software in it, all I need is the engine service manual (I already have a copy of the chassis manual) and I may try simple service myself. Checking the valves and changing the oil is one thing, changing the valve clearances on that bike is another task altogether.

Enough said about the D16RR. I worry about parking them next to each other, should the D16RR catch a flu from the 999.

 

[JohnMH]

One more question:

If I turn the key the digital dashboard should display "999R".

if I swap the ecu for one out of another testatretta, like a 999S, will the dash blink "999S"?

I just want to confirm which ECU is in the bike.

 

[rodericb]

You can select whatever model you want in the set-up menu thingy. Select if 749/999, base, S, R and US/EU etc. As for the settings, I think it might be held in the dashboard and not the ECU but someone else should be able to confirm this.

You guys over there seem to have a few unresolved problems with your bikes - has anyone thought about getting all the bikes together into some workshop somewhere and flying someone good over from Europe or USA to fix them all up at once? Get some extra stuff done like everyone ditching their PCIII's for Nemesis or Microtecs and get them tuned all at once and so on???

 

[JohnMH]

So the ECU is not the thing which tells the bike what it is? You can toggle through some settings on the dash which display a different bike model on start up? Why, unless the programming for all versions is on each ECU? Interesting...

As for the tech issue, the market here is small (we had a track event on Friday evening and one 996 showed up out of 25-30 bikes). Everything else was Japanese except one RSV4 Aprilia.

I raced a 749R here in 2006 and the season went well. I ordered some parts through the dealer and lots more through JHP in the UK. We had no catestrophic failures or major crashes but I sold the 749R at the end of the season as I knew a local rebuild was not going to be possible. My teammate "freshened" his and the motor grenaded in stupendous fashion shortly thereafter.

Would I bring someone over to do a service? Maybe in concert with the two other D16RR guys, but if we need specialized tools or parts we will run out of time while we wait for whatever we need.

 

[tye1138]

The dash board is pre-programmed with the motorcycles name in it. I'm not quite sure how you can easily change that, but I'm sure it can be done since the dash boards are all the same.

The D16RR does have some major issues if you ride it hard. You might have to bring someone over to get it repaired properly. The smoke you're seeing is normal, they all do that. I'm not sure when you need to fix it, wether its when the smoke gets really bad or what. My guess is, its got the same tolerance issues the 749R/999R have, which limits their lifespan to roughly 3,000 - 5,000 miles.

 

[ducati2242]

The D16RR does have some major issues if you ride it hard. You might have to bring someone over to get it repaired properly. The smoke you're seeing is normal, they all do that. I'm not sure when you need to fix it, wether its when the smoke gets really bad or what. My guess is, its got the same tolerance issues the 749R/999R have, which limits their lifespan to roughly 3,000 - 5,000 miles.

Think you are talking about a race engine there tye a 999r isnt normally going to go after 3 to 5 k miles. No reason why an R engine wont last for 30k plus . Unless its abused and badly looked after.

 

[tye1138]

Think you are talking about a race engine there tye a 999r isnt normally going to go after 3 to 5 k miles. No reason why an R engine wont last for 30k plus . Unless its abused and badly looked after.

Yes, your right... but the OP said the 999R was a track-only bike.

 

[safetyfish]

We did think about the idea of getting a good tech in to do a workshop session over a week where all those niggly little issues are sorted out on all the different bikes over here. He unfortunately will need to bring everything with him in order to do the specialised jobs like setting valve clearances on the 999R etc. All up it was a stupid amount of money that was being talked about,so the idea died an early death and we all just learned how to fix our own bikes as best we could by ourselves.

I feel sorry for your mate who had to experience the dealer incompetence with his D16. The one in the shop here now with the blown engine is one from Abu Dhabi that was flown in from the US by that owner.The problem is that they have an x photographer who is their workshop manager and he knows jack about bikes. Then the factory trained tech is always overseas and the guys in the shop (a great bunch of guys I must say) have never been on a technical training session of a single day and have no professional training between the lot of them but you are being charged .

Between Ducati Glascow, JHP, BCM, Motowheels and Desmotimes we just keep sourcing parts, ask for advice on various chatgroups and get on with it. If a tech reading this would like to offer his time, I am sure we can arrange for a free flight, visa and accomodation plus whatever beer he can drink.... He will just have to do work on the bikes and be willing to answer a million and one questions in the week he is here. We might even throw in a free fishing trip as aprt of the deal.

Hope ya get that 999 sorted, it sounds like an absolute beast.

SF

 

[JohnMH]

Enough D16RR talk, I have manged to ride it 250km (150 miles) in the past 12 months, so if it lasts 5000 miles, that is 33 years.

So, to understand my immobilizer issue a little better, when I unplugged everything in my electrical system from everything else to check for flaws, the immobilizer in the dashboard did not recognize my key anymore. The shop swapped the ECU with one from a standard 999 to diagnose the bike's issues, which triggered my immobilizer's tantrum.

Section P8 of the 999R manual states:

"In the event of replacement of one or more components of the immobilize system (e.g. the black keys, the decoder, or the ECU), the parts in question must be programmed."

So when they temporarily swapped the ECU from another 999, the immobilizer needed reprogramming. Makes sense. A few more questions:

Once reprogrammed using the red key / flash / throttle twist method, it will stay reprogrammed, I do not need to repeat this when I turn the bike on every time, it will stay fixed until I change something in the system again, unlike the temporary immobilizer override method possible with the DDS.

If you reinstall the original ECU you just removed and replaced, will it need reprogramming again? I suspect so as how would the system recognize its original ECU. Can anyone confirm this?

I want to beat this immobilizer system and then toss it with the ECU in a bucket.

My next issue is throttle bodies. In an effort to diagnose the issue, the entire airbox got swapped for one from a friend's 999 strada. They do not recall if they swapped it back (?!). Any way I can tell? The 06 999R and 05 999 have different part numbers there (do they appear on the parts anywhere?) Amazing.

 

[ducati2242]

once the red key has been used on your bike that is the code downloaded onto your electronics , Including your ECU , The only way it can be used on another bike is if it goes to an electronics wizard that can clear the code off. Otherwise the only bike it will work on is the one where the red key was first used. An ECU that has not had the red key inserted can be used on another bike. It does not need to be coded to the bike. The dash does though.
My 06 999R has the race ECU fitted but it is not coded. If its taken from your bike it will always remember the code , if in place , and can be used months later without any problems.
I believe that the throttle bodies on the 06 999R has twin injectors the 05 999 didnt. So yes they will be different.

 

[JohnMH]

Interesting. My bike has never had the red key used by me until Saturday (it was in a bag zip tied to the license plate holder which I removed and tossed in a box when I uncrated the bike.

I am beginning to suspect that I have a borrowed stock 999 ECU in the bike and not my Ducati Performance one. I will test my theory tonight by taking the ECU out of my friend's "donor" 999 and checking if it works on my bike with my red key. What a pain, I will need to reset the TPS again if I find that my ECU has been stuck in my friend's 999.

As for the injectors, they are both single injector bikes, the part books look identical but the part numbers are different. I will compare tonight as the bikes are side by side.

Never again will I trust a local tech to troubleshoot one of my bikes.