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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Its been awhile but I'm back and trying to get back into riding season. I'm no longer commuting 3 days a week every week of the year so my bike sits in the garage and i try taking her out once every 2 weeks or so on Sundays to keep her in shape.

So i went out to rider down do the duc dealer to watch the races this Sunday and she was dead to the world, nothing on my screen even. This is the second time this has happened in the last 7 mos, the first time i thought i left it on or something because it was connected to Lipo Jr battery tender. The shop replaced the battery for me and this last one was left un-tendered and every thing seemed fine. This time around i've ordered a shorai battery maintainer/ charger for it.

My research has come up with maybe the the rectifier is bad? but would that leave the battery dead to the world? or is there small draw from the bike over time? its a 2010 1098 streetfighter with 18k miles on her with a shorai LFX battery.

Anyone have thoughts?
 

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Have you done any troubleshooting yourself? Do you have a multi-meter? Are you able to remove the left side panel so you can access the battery?

If you have a meter and can access the battery, you can find out what is happening in five minutes, and Im happy to help you out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes i have one, unfortunately my dad was the multi meter man i guess it time for me to learn how to use it. i was going to dive into once my charger showed up tonight.
 

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Battery Tender makes a mini volt meter, that has a molded on SAE plug on it. It is small and useful enough so that everyone should have one in their pocket of riding gear. $13-$18 depending on where you buy it.

Uli-
 

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How long was this last one left by itself?

There are 3 "hits" on the LiFePO4 technology

1) it costs a lot relative to AGM

2) it has the well known poor performance in colder weather

3) they are rated as an "amp/hour equivalent" and not at their actual amp hour storage rating.

What that means is that a LiFePO4 battery only has about 33% of the true storage of their AH rating.

A lead-acid chemistry battery (wet-cell, Gel-cell or AGM) will have 1,000 milliamps of storage per AH.

So, a 14AH AGM has 14,000 milliamps,

A 14AH Equivalent LiFePO4 has only about 4620 milliamps.

So it will go dead in only 1/3 the time due to any parasitic draw.

And if they are allowed to drop below 12.86V they are often not recoverable using a smart charger.

The smart charger will get back a reading that the battery is totally dead and will not attempt to recover it.

The workaround is to put the battery on a dumb charger of maybe 1 AH rating or less and monitor it *very* carefully.

Put it on the dumb charger and after 30-45 minutes put it on the smart charger and see if the charger goes into it's normal charge routine.

A dumb charger just puts out current and forces it into the battery. It does not measure anything and will overcharge a battery if left on all the time.

If it doesn’t go another 30-45 minutes with the dumb charger. Repeat until it "takes".

Most of the time the dumb charger will eventually get enough charge into it for the smart charger to get a message that the battery will now take a charge and you are back in business.

The Shorai business model is to put the Battery Management system in the charger whereas many of the other LiFePO4 makers include it in each battery (and that's why they often cost more).

So if you have a Shorai it is a very good idea to use their charger to balance the cells.

Their thinking (I'm assuming) is that if you have 4 batteries you have only had to buy 1 BMS.

Hope This Helps.

M./
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ok installed new battery and it sadi 12.6 before start up. then 14 at 4.5k rpm. i didn't have time to do real test with load meter but left in storage mode with factory charger for that that battery. also is that blinking red light for theft protection an issue? also sorry my computer is spinning those pics upside down.
 

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How long was this last one left by itself?

There are 3 "hits" on the LiFePO4 technology

1) it costs a lot relative to AGM

2) it has the well known poor performance in colder weather

3) they are rated as an "amp/hour equivalent" and not at their actual amp hour storage rating.

What that means is that a LiFePO4 battery only has about 33% of the true storage of their AH rating.

A lead-acid chemistry battery (wet-cell, Gel-cell or AGM) will have 1,000 milliamps of storage per AH.

So, a 14AH AGM has 14,000 milliamps,

A 14AH Equivalent LiFePO4 has only about 4620 milliamps.

So it will go dead in only 1/3 the time due to any parasitic draw.

And if they are allowed to drop below 12.86V they are often not recoverable using a smart charger.

The smart charger will get back a reading that the battery is totally dead and will not attempt to recover it.

The workaround is to put the battery on a dumb charger of maybe 1 AH rating or less and monitor it *very* carefully.

Put it on the dumb charger and after 30-45 minutes put it on the smart charger and see if the charger goes into it's normal charge routine.

A dumb charger just puts out current and forces it into the battery. It does not measure anything and will overcharge a battery if left on all the time.

If it doesn’t go another 30-45 minutes with the dumb charger. Repeat until it "takes".

Most of the time the dumb charger will eventually get enough charge into it for the smart charger to get a message that the battery will now take a charge and you are back in business.

The Shorai business model is to put the Battery Management system in the charger whereas many of the other LiFePO4 makers include it in each battery (and that's why they often cost more).

So if you have a Shorai it is a very good ideat to use their charger to balance the cells.

Their thinking (I'm assuming) is that if you have 4 batteries you have only had to buy 1 BMS.

Hope This Helps.

M./
While some of that is helpful, there are a few things to note. I'll point out a few things, and provide links with data supporting what Im saying.

The idea that the charger is a BMS is completely false. The only people who suggest this, are those selling these products. Its really unfortunate. What has now happened, is that there is an entire industry- along with many riders- who are completely confused about battery ratings in the real world.
In fact, I wrote a long, well sourced post about this exact issue in...2012. There are a ton of links to primary sources in there: https://www.fullspectrumpower.com/b...harger-or-bms-for-lightweight-lithium-battery

As I point out in that post, the whole point of a BMS (Battery Management System) is to...manage the battery *while in use*. The Shorai charger does not do this, since *it is not a BMS*. What it is, is a balance charger. That's fine, and Im sure it works well at charging and balancing...but it is not a BMS. If nothing else, a BMS should be *internal to the battery* and should provide basic functions that manage and protect the cells.
I point this out because it is a really important distinction. The external charger does nothing to protect or manage the battery while in use, nor is it part of the battery.

Now, the rating of LA batteries vs lithium is also a murky swamp of BS. Years ago, Motorcyclist Magazine actually tested the AH ratings of the available batteries. They used a 55w headlight bulb to drain the batteries down to 10v (which I feel is too low) and determined a real world AH rating.
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/news/lighten-lithium-ion-battery-gear#page-2

Excerpt: a Yuasa YTX12-BS had an actual rating of 4.2ah. A Shorai LFX14A2 with a PBEQ of 14 actually yielded 3.2ah- the lowest in the test.

In truth, the measurement should be 1amp for 1 hour = 1ah, and so on. That is the only way to really be accurate about these things. Just my opinion.

The real question is why does capacity matter in a bike with a charging system? I would argue that it should not make a bit of difference, so long as there is enough capacity for easy starts. As the Motorcyclist Magazine test revealed, even a 12ah Yuasa had only slightly more capacity that the lowest ranked battery in the test. 4.2ah vs 3.2ah.

So, if that is the case, what is the advantage of lead acid at all?

As you point out above- better cold weather performance and lower cost. I would suggest that a Yuasa is the best LA battery available, and one of those is between $100-$200. In a Harley, it can be over $250.
In 2018, there are high quality lithium options that are well within that range, and they offer significant performance advantages over LA batteries that easily justify an increase in price.

Lastly- cold weather performance can be an issue with lithium. No question. If you leave your bike out all night in temps under 40f, you will likely have to "wake the battery up" in the morning. That is an inconvenience.
 

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Ok installed new battery and it sadi 12.6 before start up. then 14 at 4.5k rpm. i didn't have time to do real test with load meter but left in storage mode with factory charger for that that battery. also is that blinking red light for theft protection an issue? also sorry my computer is spinning those pics upside down.
14v @ 4k is excellent! Thats a good sign.

The red LED is meant to be a theft deterrent. I wouldnt be worried about that draining the battery. Very low power consumption.
 

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Yes i have one, unfortunately my dad was the multi meter man i guess it time for me to learn how to use it. i was going to dive into once my charger showed up tonight.
I'm not exactly clear here, you have a Shorai battery? and you ordered their purpose built charger, right?

If so, then you should be able to charge the battery and see about 14.3 volts at full charge.

If you have a properly functioning regulator you should see about 14.2 by 2K RPM and it should top out before 14.7 (not go higher). Some will go a bit higher and you can live with it but anything beyond 14.9 is shortening the life of the battery to some degree.

The important thing to do is ride the bike normally, park it at home, give it 30 mins to settle down and check the voltage with the key off. If everything is working well you will again see the 14.3 which tells you that

A) the reg is working properly

B) your ride home is at high enough RPM to both run the bike and keep the battery charged

A lot of battery issues crop up when riders have to start/stop through city streets and then park the bike in what is actually a slightly discharged condition.

One of the myths perpetrated by Shorai resellers is that the LiFePO4 do not discharge. They do not self-discharge if there is no parasitic draw. But any parasitic draw does drag them down just like any other battery. BTW, we sell Shorai and I have run them in both my bikes and there's one in my current ride right now.

The summary I would leave you with is - you just cannot leave modern bikes sitting without putting a smart charger on them anymore. A smart charger will really cut down on the hassle-factor of modern bikes and their batteries.

Hope This Helps.

M./
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yes I have shorai battery and their own charger. Last battery I was using battery tender lipo junior and it still quit on me.


Tonight I put a multi meter on the battery while it was running . And it showed the same as the dash. But at 2k right rpm it was at 13.9. And at 4K it hovered at 14vs



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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A lot of battery issues crop up when riders have to start/stop through city streets and then park the bike in what is actually a slightly discharged condition.

One of the myths perpetrated by Shorai resellers is that the LiFePO4 do not discharge. They do not self-discharge if there is no parasitic draw. But any parasitic draw does drag them down just like any other battery. BTW, we sell Shorai and I have run them in both my bikes and there's one in my current ride right now.

The summary I would leave you with is - you just cannot leave modern bikes sitting without putting a smart charger on them anymore. A smart charger will really cut down on the hassle-factor of modern bikes and their batteries.

Hope This Helps.

M./
I wish everyone would read those words, and use them as the basis for understanding batteries.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So after 2 weeks on the shoaria charger she started up just fine. Then after 1 min I shut her off to talk to neighbor. She had hard time financing the cranking to start back up. Rode her for 30 mins on freeway to bank and she had a hrs time trying to find the juice to crank. But she did. So I put her on charge mode and went to the dealer after an hour convinced it’s the regulator. But they didn’t have time to squeeze me in to check. So I decided to do the dirty work. When I removed my regulator I saw this on the side that goes back to stater. Looks burnt. IMG_5018.JPG

IMG_5017.JPG

So is it just corrosion or something serious?






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Doesn't look good. My guess is that one of the phase in the stator has shorted and fried.

I would start by checking the resistance of all the phases to see if the one with the fried wire has shorted. If so you probably need a new stator. Charging on two phases instead of three would explain the charging problems... Because 14 volts when at 4k rpm is ok, but it should be at 14.4 volts with a "good shape" charging system.


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk
 

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It's a real common problem, just cut those spade connectors off and fit a large house wiring terminal strip, the ones with two screws on the top in a nylon case.
That burnt wire is your problem, cut the end off and it should be all good with a clean connector.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Argggg. New plug, new rectifier. At idle it’s 13.8. Never really moves maybe hit 14 to 14.1 at 4K.

So stator is next.

I’m assuming hoses have to be disconnected, and oil and coolant dropped?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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So after 2 weeks on the shoaria charger she started up just fine. Then after 1 min I shut her off to talk to neighbor. She had hard time financing the cranking to start back up. Rode her for 30 mins on freeway to bank and she had a hrs time trying to find the juice to crank. But she did. So I put her on charge mode and went to the dealer after an hour convinced it’s the regulator. But they didn’t have time to squeeze me in to check. So I decided to do the dirty work. When I removed my regulator I saw this on the side that goes back to stater. Looks burnt. View attachment 904369

View attachment 904377

So is it just corrosion or something serious?






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is burnt, for sure. Ive been traveling for a few weeks- hopefully you got a MOSFET regulator...

Argggg. New plug, new rectifier. At idle it’s 13.8. Never really moves maybe hit 14 to 14.1 at 4K.

So stator is next.

I’m assuming hoses have to be disconnected, and oil and coolant dropped?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What did you get for a regulator? How are you measuring voltage? Is this with a meter, or the dashboard reading?
First, check the stator with the bike running. If you do need to replace the stator winding, yes, youll have to drain the coolant but likely not the oil. (its been a while since Ive done this)
 

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Had this same issue - 2 batteries in a week. Turned out to be my recitifier - easy fix and a good excuse to get handy with my multimeter
 
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