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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

can anybody tell me what the differences are between MK3 w/c engines built in Spain (73-74) and those built in Italy.(Apart from the clutch adjustment window plate bearing the made in Italy script) Is one any more mechanically sound than the other, did one use cheaper components etc ?

Andy
 

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I was told by Steve Wynne of Sports Motorcycles that the Mototrans bikes were poorly built, plus, you must have heard of the issues with build quality that Vic Camp had when he imported Mototrans bikes into the UK?
 

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According to my information the Mototrans bikes were based on the earlier narrowcase models, specifically the original 175 from 1957. Mick Walker's Ducati Singles book discusses the differences.

Bruce
 

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differences with mototrans and real ducati

The 5 speed gears were made of poor Quality gear steel, that have teeth, that chip and wear down, also have a poor electronic ign system.I've known guys that go so far to put a timing cover off an
Italian one to get made in Italy on the engine. other differences mototrans have
are a snail cam chain adjusters(that I like) and different front forks, brand of wheels. Less desirable than a real Ducati !If you want to know more , ask madd duc, he's worked on them at a Ducati dealer in Florida. Capt Paul
 

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Desmodog'
The drive chain rear wheel adjusters were called "snail cam wheel adjusters, on dirt bikes be cause when you taped the tang on the snail,cam shaped chain adj the wheel moved back and tightened the slack chain,sorry I didn't intend to mean cam chain, I should have worded it clearer Capt Paul
 

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Hi Andy

there is absolutly nothing wrong with the late widecase mototrans engines .

the only thing i would replace is the oilpump gear ( its made of briddle plastic )
replace it with a steel italian oilpump gear

Eldert
 

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Hi Andy

there is absolutly nothing wrong with the late widecase mototrans engines .

the only thing i would replace is the oilpump gear ( its made of briddle plastic )
replace it with a steel italian oilpump gear

Eldert
I was going to hang back an not comment in this thread. But its so stupid! I totally agree with Eldert that there is nothing wrong with the late Mototrans engines, or bikes for that matter.... In alot of ways they were better, as they kept developing them.

They are as Ducati as any other, and if you can get your hands on one, it'll be fine!

With Ducati's the reason why they develop issues like busted gears is the rider miss treating them... You could chip a tooth as easily on an Italian gearbox as a Spanish one.

MF
 

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I also agree that the quality of the engine parts are probably equal with one exception as mentioned: the oil pump gear. I have found however that the w/c Mototrans frames are not as 'evolved' as the Italian examples. For instance, they lack steering head tank mounting lugs. Also, from a collector's POV, Mototrans are not as highly prized. Probably because of the adverse "Italian Cousins" stigma mentioned by one of our most famous authors.
I was going to hang back an not comment in this thread. But its so stupid! I totally agree with Eldert that there is nothing wrong with the late Mototrans engines, or bikes for that matter.... In alot of ways they were better, as they kept developing them.

They are as Ducati as any other, and if you can get your hands on one, it'll be fine!

With Ducati's the reason why they develop issues like busted gears is the rider miss treating them... You could chip a tooth as easily on an Italian gearbox as a Spanish one.

MF
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hello all, thanks for the replies,

perhaps I should explain a little more, I have 2 almost complete valve spring singles, 250 and 350 first registered '74. I assume that one is spanish and the other italian based on nothing more than the made in italy embellishments on the engine cases present on one and not the other. I intend to restore both bikes and wanted to know how the engine internals may be made more reliable by replacing the inferior components. The oilpump gear and ignition sound like easy mods, the gear and (reported elsewhere) crank hardening issues are probably beyond rectification.

I note that in this thread and others referrals to spanish cycle part differences.
Both these machines appear to have identical frames with rubber tank mount attachments, marzochi forks, twin sls drums, borranni rims, one has full (Desmo)
brake and gearchange rearsets, the 350 a valve lifter. Could it be that I have a spanish engine in an italian rolling chassis ? Is there are kind of register available that would identify frame and engine numbers ?

PS Mike, i hope you mean that it is stupid to hold back and not that the thread is stupid !
 

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It can be viewed at:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/kombo/index.htm

http://es.groups.yahoo.com/search?query=mototrans

GUIDE TO THE CHASSIS AND ENGINE NUMBERS

* 125 sports: MD 10 ... 14 ...
* 125 TS: MD 30 ... 35 ...
* SPORT 160: MD 15 ... 18 ...
* 160 TS: MD 38 ... 40 ...
* 175 TS: MD 53 ... 58 ...
* 200 TS: MD 60 ... 80 ...
* 200 Elite: MD 60 ... and 83 ...
* 200 V5 (5 speed): MD 9 ...
DELUXE * 250: MD 85 ... 97 ...
* 24 HOURS: 97 to MD 99 ...
350 * FORCE: SERIES 430,000.
350 * WIND: SERIAL 74000th.
* 250 ROAD: 44000 onwards.
SCRAMBLER * The nomenclature has changed from DM, Ducati Meccanica initial followed by displacement of the motorcycle, the letter S and six numbers.
* Twin: 351,000 onwards
* DESMO: 411,000 onwards


PD: Italian Ducati Meccanica motorcycles DM and Spanish Mototrans Ducati MD
 

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Hi Andy

the very last bikes that got off the assembly line in Italy used Spanish
mototrans engines . i have seen original scramblers and the blue and gold
Mark III s with mototrans engines .

the mototrans cilinderhead is a differend casting then the italian one .
one the rh rear side of the head the fin that goes from the rear oil return
banjo to the manifold stud is a little bigger

Eldert

Hello all, thanks for the replies,

I have 2 almost complete valve spring
Both these machines appear to have identical frames with rubber tank mount attachments, marzochi forks, twin sls drums, borranni rims, one has full (Desmo)
brake and gearchange rearsets, the 350 a valve lifter. Could it be that I have a spanish engine in an italian rolling chassis ? Is there are kind of register available that would identify frame and engine numbers ?

QUOTE]
 

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Hello all, thanks for the replies,

PS Mike, i hope you mean that it is stupid to hold back and not that the thread is stupid !
Hi CRM114,

I didn’t mean the thread was stupid. Its just we visit the mototrans question every few months, and we get a whole bunch of people who like to inflate their heads by saying that their Italian built single is superior to all the Spanish built singles. But as the thread continues, we end up finding out that really there is no big differences.

If you look at the evolution of the mototrans single bevel engine, you actually see its is far superior, with oil pressure switch, coil valve springs instead of the lame hair springs on the Italian models, and better cranks.

I think use which ever engine is in better condition and just swap your oil pump.

Good luck with your build, and post plenty of pics for us all to see :)

Regards

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks once more for your input,

those models listed on the Mototrans link dont appear anything like my 350 which has the spanish engine. Although repainted you can see that the tank was once metallic blue and all the parts correspond very well with the Haynes manual and with mick walkers singles book. It seems that elderts suggestion that the last ones came with spanish engines is the most likely explanation. Unfortunately the bikes are at this moment in one country and I in another so I cannot confirm the engine fin difference or indeed the id numbers.

Hopefully I will have them with me before the year is out. I shall be back !
 

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YES,....:
http://perso.wanadoo.es/kombo/tecnica.html

GUÍA PARA EL chasis y el motor números "Mototrans DUCATI"

* 125 deportes: MD 10 ... 14 ...
* 125 TS: MD 30 ... 35 ...
* SPORT 160: MD 15 ... 18 ...
* 160 TS: MD 38 ... 40 ...
* 175 TS: MD 53 ... 58 ...
* 200 TS: MD 60 ... 80 ...
* 200 Elite: MD 60 ... y 83 ...
* 200 V5 (5 velocidades): MD 9 ...
DELUXE * 250: MD 85 ... 97 ...
* 24 horas: 97 para el MD 99 ...
350 * FUERZA: SERIE 430.000.
350 * VIENTO: SERIAL 74000a.
* 250 CARRETERA: 44000 en adelante.
* SCRAMBLER La nomenclatura ha cambiado de DM, Ducati Meccanica inicial, seguida por el desplazamiento de la motocicleta, la letra S y seis números.
* Doble: 351.000 en adelante
* DESMO: 411.000 en adelante
 

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Discussion Starter #16
well it took some time but now I have the bikes with me.

The suspected Italian engine has DM250M3, the suspected Mototrans has DM350, both engines use hairpin valve springs, both engines bear the "Made in Italy" casting on the timing case, only the 250 has "Made in Italy" on the clutch adjust window plate. Neither has black head,cylinder or bevel tube.

As Eldert suggested the head fin at rear right on the 350 is noticeably larger than that on the 250, so based on this its a mototrans (and motoplat ignition)

However another thread here... http://www.ducati.ms/forums/14-vintage/78976-what-kind-head.html
suggests that the presence of the taller 8 vertical fins above the exhaust port indicates a Mototrans, both 250 and 350 have identical tall fins !

All the cycle parts appear Italian and both at some stage have had metallic blue tanks and airboxes. Not that it really matters, but it would nice to know just exactly what I've got. The engines are complete so I cannot comment on the internals which are supposedly definitive.
 

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This is my wife's 1981 Mototrans 250 Strada. I bought it brand new from the Sydney Triumph dealer who had brought it in for market evaluation. I bought it extremely cheaply as it did not have Australian compliance. I managed to register it (as an earlier model) and my wife rode it for about a year.
It handled brilliantly but was underpowered as I believe the rolling chassis was the same as larger capacity models. My wife had trouble putting the bike on the centre stand as the stand was way too long. The rear wheel was about 6 inches off the ground when parked.
We had no mechanical problems though the engine seemed noisier than my 250 Desmo.
 

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Hi Andy

the lefthand cilinderhead is a Spanish head , the other one is Italian

about I.D.ing your bikes if they are the blue / gold Mark III s they should
have 19 inch front rims . the Yellow Desmo drumbrake version had 18 inch
front rims

Eldert
 

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Discussion Starter #19
and in addition now that I have actually cleaned the crud out of the 8 small fins above the exhaust port and measured them, it is clear that (as other posters have said) the italian casting has fins approx 6mm high and the spanish casting fins are 12mm high - they are not as I had previously stated identical !

yes they do both have F19/R18" wheel combos
 

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Some Spanish Ducatis made it to Kansas in 1973. The ones I saw were orange 350 spring valve. They sat about an inch taller than my 1970 350 desmo, and needed the longer center stand. They had taller front forks,
with exposed sliders, and taller rear shocks. They had a taller seat with more pading. Eventually I procured a taller stand for mine when the suspension was changed out - 750 Honda front end with modified clamps, Norton Commando rear shocks.
 
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