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1st Gen Hypermotard Hooligan
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Realize I'm reviving an old thread but wanted to throw this out for anyone else researching this issue in the future who happens to come across this thread like I did looking for an answer to this inconvenient trait. As far as I'm concerned, a high idle hang is not normal.

I was able to resolve this problem by making a very minor adjustment to both of the air bleed screws on the TB. My theory is that this pestering high idle hang is due to a very lean idle mixture, ie "lean idle hang." In a nutshell, turning the air bleed screws to the right "richens" up the mixture at idle. By doing so, you are not actually increasing the amount of fuel but rather decreasing the amount of air entering in. The fuel flow remains at a constant level. Only make very minor adjustments at a time to both sides equally. A little goes a very long way. Use common judgement and mark your stock setting on each side.

I had a pretty profound lean idle hang prior to making a 1/4 turn adjustment to both screws which not only aided in easier cold starting tenfold, but completely removed any trace of the high idle, produced a stronger idle and also minimized any popping on decel.

Here are the details on my experience. If you have any questions about my experience with this, feel free to PM me. :)

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/241-tec...-high-idle-hang-here-how-i-remedied-mine.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Realize I'm reviving an old thread but wanted to throw this out for anyone else researching this issue in the future who happens to come across this thread like I did looking for an answer to this inconvenient trait. As far as I'm concerned, a high idle hang is not normal.

I was able to resolve this problem by making a very minor adjustment to both of the air bleed screws on the TB. My theory is that this pestering high idle hang is due to a very lean idle mixture, ie "lean idle hang." In a nutshell, turning the air bleed screws to the right "richens" up the mixture at idle. By doing so, you are not actually increasing the amount of fuel but rather decreasing the amount of air entering in. The fuel flow remains at a constant level. Only make very minor adjustments at a time to both sides equally. A little goes a very long way. Use common judgement and mark your stock setting on each side.

I had a pretty profound lean idle hang prior to making a 1/4 turn adjustment to both screws which not only aided in easier cold starting tenfold, but completely removed any trace of the high idle, produced a stronger idle and also minimized any popping on decel.

Here are the details on my experience. If you have any questions about my experience with this, feel free to PM me. :)

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/241-tec...-high-idle-hang-here-how-i-remedied-mine.html
Dude, I have just one thing to say to you about this:

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE?!?!?

Notes for others who want to try this: The idle air screws are behind while plastic plugs on the outboard sides of the throttle bodies. No need to remove the tank. Push on the centers of the plugs with a scribe and they pop in; then you can easily reach in and pry the plugs out. My screws hit full stop after about 3/16 turn. I just closed them all the way and left them like that.

Now, for the good stuff. My idle has been behaving itself lately, so no noticeable change there. BUT... My heavens, what an improvement in the low-end running. The bike now pulls cleanly from 1500 RPM. I can putt down the road at 3000 RPM and there is no hunting or surge whatsoever. All the decel pop is gone. The bike is much smoother and quieter from idle to midrange.

I kid you not. Don't know if this is a typical result, but if I had just spent $300 for an ECU reflash, this is what I would have expected. This is a MUST HAVE modification, and it takes two minutes and costs nothing.

Very, very excited about this. I'm not imagining it. This is a really big deal. No, you will not end up with ten more horsepower, but after 14,000 miles, this is the first time my bike has ever run right below 4000 RPM.

Thanks so much.

-Henry
 

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1st Gen Hypermotard Hooligan
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992 Posts
Henry,

This is fantastic!! SO happy to hear this and that it worked for someone else!! :)

I'm glad that you are experiencing the same results as I'm having. Even though the air bleed screws primarily effect the mixture at idle, I also noticed the running nature greatly improve down low; it seems much happier than it did before. I honestly neglected to leave that part out as I was a little worried that folks might begin to think I was going overboard with this but I'm glad that you confirmed that observation. Dare I say it is near the levels of an SV down low in terms of smoothness and rideability. It is astonishing and you ask yourself if it is really true that you are riding a Ducati. ;)

Thanks for the update! As Henry mentioned, this is not in an attempt by any means to increase power, this is to improve the running nature of your bike.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Henry,

This is fantastic!! SO happy to hear this and that it worked for someone else!! :)

I'm glad that you are experiencing the same results as I'm having. Even though the air bleed screws primarily effect the mixture at idle, I also noticed the running nature greatly improve down low; it seems much happier than it did before. I honestly neglected to leave that part out as I was a little worried that folks might begin to think I was going overboard with this but I'm glad that you confirmed that observation. Dare I say it is near the levels of an SV down low in terms of smoothness and rideability. It is astonishing and you ask yourself if it is really true that you are riding a Ducati. ;)

Thanks for the update! As Henry mentioned, this is not in an attempt by any means to increase power, this is to improve the running nature of your bike.
Yes, absolutely. I was also afraid people would think I was gonna tell them I put a cow magnet in my tank or something. No, this isn't snake oil. It's just what you expect when you take an engine that is choking on too much air in a desperate attempt to suck in some fuel and then plug up the air leak.

The interesting thing about this is that, in this case anyway, it completely obviates the need for Fat Ducs or any other kludge fix. Granted, there is probably more improvement to be had with additional tuning. But you have to wonder if they didn't design the engine to run right with the screws closed, and then set the air bleed at the factory as lean as they can without killing the engine entirely.

I used to have a Paso 750 and it ran like crap with the stock Weber carb. Finally, after many weeks of desperate work, I threw away the Weber and put on 36mm Dellortos. It pulled like a tractor from the first time I started the engine, no jetting required. I always wondered why my Monster wouldn't run that way, but I had resigned myself to the lean stumble. The Paso had less aggressive cams, so the Monster will never be quite the stump-puller that the 750 was. But this is a really significant improvement.

Good job...

-Henry
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Couple more comments/observations.

1) Was driving around last night with temperatures in the mid-thirties. The lean surge is almost entirely gone, but there is still a trace.
2) The bike is much happier at 4000 RPM on the highway now. Before the change it chugged a bit below 75 MPH indicated in top gear. Now, I can comfortably cruise at 65-70 MPH in sixth. I find I'm actually driving a bit slower on the highway now because I don't feel the need to wind the motor higher into the power band.
3) The bike seems to run cooler. Temperature was about 40F this morning on the way to work. The bike would normally hit three bars by the time I got to the office in this weather, but this morning it only went up to two bars.
4) My preferred in-town cruising RPM is now a comfortable 3000 RPM. I am running a gear higher than before in city traffic with no chugging or surging.
5) The character of the motor hasn't changed -- it still has a light flywheel, so don't expect it to run like a Cadillac at 1500 RPM, LOL.

Edit: I don't know how long the time constant is on the closed-loop O2 monitoring. I hope the ECU won't get wise after a few hundred miles and lean the bike out again...

-Henry
 

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1st Gen Hypermotard Hooligan
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Nice observations!

I too had been thinking last night about the operating temp and how it seemed to be running a few degrees cooler. I noticed that it took longer to warm up (a longer stretch between each bar interval). I'm curious, is yours quicker to start now when it is dead cold? On mine, it is truly night and day. No comparison. Before it took several revolutions/attempts (and would sometimes stall at first) to light off when it was anything below 50 degrees F and now it fires on the first revolution as if it were fully warmed up with a very strong idle.
 

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I don't know how long the time constant is on the closed-loop O2 monitoring. I hope the ECU won't get wise after a few hundred miles and lean the bike out again...
This is the only thing I'd be worried about. I would think that the closed loop range (somewhere around 0-20% throttle and below 4500rpm) would adjust itself due to the O2s... I'm curious to try this on my 796, let us know how it feels in a couple weeks time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
This is the only thing I'd be worried about. I would think that the closed loop range (somewhere around 0-20% throttle and below 4500rpm) would adjust itself due to the O2s... I'm curious to try this on my 796, let us know how it feels in a couple weeks time.
Yeah, I'm afraid it's eventually going to rain on my parade. But even if it does, this is a nice confirmation that the bike *can* run properly. I can always get an open-loop reflash, though obviously I like the price of the current mod.

-Henry
 

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1st Gen Hypermotard Hooligan
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It may not, I would think that it would have already begun doing it by now with the riding you've gotten in if that was going to be the case.

mszilves, Keep us posted with your results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
It may not, I would think that it would have already begun doing it by now with the riding you've gotten in if that was going to be the case.
It's hard to tell. The bike was stumbling a bit on the way home from work today. It's more cold-blooded now, and it was stop-and-go traffic in light, cold rain. Intuition says the ECU is going to fight the change. I'll probably go for the reflash eventually, though I'm skeptical about one-size-fits-all fuel maps.

My fantasy is to ditch the fuel injection entirely and set the bike up with Dellortos. But I know it would be lunacy, and expensive, to attempt that. And would probably break my ABS and DTC.

On an entirely different subject, there's some left-over winter gravel in the parking lot at work. I've never been comfortable sliding rear tires on street bikes. So now, every day when I leave the parking garage, I make a left turn on the gravel and goose the throttle to make the rear end slide out. The DTC is set to level two and I get a nice, controlled little slide. Computers do have their uses...

Let's hope I don't have to post a picture of bike rash, ha, ha.

-Henry
 

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1st Gen Hypermotard Hooligan
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I'll probably go for the reflash eventually, though I'm skeptical about one-size-fits-all fuel maps.
I'm with you a 110% with that mentality. You're exactly right, there is no map out there that fits all and everybody's particular configurations. Yes, you can find maps that are close to your bike or specific setup, but, will it ever be perfectly ideal? No! Just like people, every motor is different. One motor might need a little bit more fuel at 5K rpm while the comparable motor with the exact setup next to it may need a little less fuel at 5k rpm. Install that "one size fits" all map into both bikes and as you can see, neither of them are going to be performing at their full potential, or, efficiently. Simply put, without a proper tailor fit dyno tune, the bike is never going to run ideal or as well as it can on a generic "one size fits all" provided map.

It is a very debatable subject, but I will throw my $.02 out there FWIW. I would do a reflash and install a PC-5. Why a PC-5? While PC's are not always favored due to being a "piggy back" type system which I completely understand, they will however allow you to create custom individual maps (one for each cylinder) made for your bike that no other bike has or that you could purchase and this is through dyno tuning. Sure, you can purchase a Microtech ECU or similar, but, you're not going to have the capability to create your own specific maps practically and again, run into the issue of only having to use the company's provided base maps. I had a very long discussion with my dyno tuner (Nels Beyersdorf) regarding PC-5's vs. going a full custom ECU route as I was actually apposed to going with a PC-5 in the beginning. To make a long story short, he changed my view completely on PC's due to their capabilities, ease of use and large network connection if anything ever went wrong with the unit. There are some custom ECU's out there that you can tune, however, you cannot tune them live like you can with a PC-5. What this means is that you have to make the changes to the maps while the bike is not actually running. This is actually a very time consuming process because the changes have to be loaded to the ECU every time which can be a very time consuming process. This makes the tuning much more impracticable and creates a lot of guess work as you are not analyzing what's happening real time like you are while the bike is running on the dyno and have the ability to make the changes immediately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I'm with you a 110% with that mentality. You're exactly right, there is no map out there that fits all and everybody's particular configurations. Yes, you can find maps that are close to your bike or specific setup, but, will it ever be perfectly ideal? No! Just like people, every motor is different. One motor might need a little bit more fuel at 5K rpm while the comparable motor with the exact setup next to it may need a little less fuel at 5k rpm. Install that "one size fits" all map into both bikes and as you can see, neither of them are going to be performing at their full potential, or, efficiently. Simply put, without a proper tailor fit dyno tune, the bike is never going to run ideal or as well as it can on a generic "one size fits all" provided map.

It is a very debatable subject, but I will throw my $.02 out there FWIW. I would do a reflash and install a PC-5. Why a PC-5? While PC's are not always favored due to being a "piggy back" type system which I completely understand, they will however allow you to create custom individual maps (one for each cylinder) made for your bike that no other bike has or that you could purchase and this is through dyno tuning. Sure, you can purchase a Microtech ECU or similar, but, you're not going to have the capability to create your own specific maps practically and again, run into the issue of only having to use the company's provided base maps. I had a very long discussion with my dyno tuner (Nels Beyersdorf) regarding PC-5's vs. going a full custom ECU route as I was actually apposed to going with a PC-5 in the beginning. To make a long story short, he changed my view completely on PC's due to their capabilities, ease of use and large network connection if anything ever went wrong with the unit. There are some custom ECU's out there that you can tune, however, you cannot tune them live like you can with a PC-5. What this means is that you have to make the changes to the maps while the bike is not actually running. This is actually a very time consuming process because the changes have to be loaded to the ECU every time which can be a very time consuming process. This makes the tuning much more impracticable and creates a lot of guess work as you are not analyzing what's happening real time like you are while the bike is running on the dyno and have the ability to make the changes immediately.
I'm inclined to go with a reflash to start, just to get the O2 sensors out of the picture. Even though a generic map may not be a perfect match, I doubt the factory ECUs are matched to the bikes, either. Well, maybe, I dunno... Anyway, a generic aftermarket map that is closer to ideal is better than a stock map that is even farther from ideal. If, after reflashing, the bike still doesn't run right, I would consider the Power Commander. You're right, it's a lot of electronics to add to the bike, and it's not as clean a solution as just having the right ECU software in the first place.

I was experiencing a little bit of idle hang today, even with the screws closed. It's frustrating because the behavior is inconsistent and I haven't been able to relate it to weather conditions, engine temperature, and so on. As I said, it was surging on the way home from work last night, but not today.

I decided to do some experiments. First thing I did was put the screws back to one quarter turn from closed. I noticed a bit of surging returned, but I also think I realized some of the improvement I noticed may be placebo effect. Again, hard to tell.

Next experiment I tried was to back the screws way out. I did this while the engine was running. Interestingly, while I was doing this there was absolutely no change in the idle speed or smoothness. But when I got out on the road I immediately had a sticking high idle. So at least the screws do something.

I really think the heart of the problem is the idle air control valve. So I took off the tank, unplugged the tube from the air box that goes to the AIC valve, and put a piece of plastic baggie over the spigot on the airbox. Then I plugged the tube back in, effectively blocking the AIC. It was really hard to start the bike because it absolutely would not idle. If I held the throttle open, the bike would run but after a couple of seconds I got a CEL and the engine tone changed -- I think it went into Limp Home Mode. I was concerned about maybe breaking something, so I put it all back together and am back at square one.

I was talking to the owner of the Ducati/BMW dealership today who's helping me with my R100 project. He's a pretty experienced tuner and, unfortunately, didn't have any specific knowledge of this problem. I can understand why these guys don't have the time or interest to hang out on discussion forums. They have better things to do with their time and are rightfully suspicious of internet gossip. After all, they get to see the real thing all day, every day. Anyway, he did say they do have periodic issues with the AIC and other bits of plumbing getting clogged up and causing problems. He said the only way he could tell for sure would be to hook the bike to their computer. But, of course, Ducati won't pay for diagnostics on the basis of a poor running complaint unless a warranty-covered fault is found. So I'm looking at having to pay a few bills for what is likely to be a null result. I had a CEL and sticking idle issues the first year I owned the bike and actually got them to run a diagnostic for me at the time (different dealer). They didn't find any problems, so I don't expect anything different this time.

The AIC valve is really hard to get to even with the tank off and the battery box removed. I'd like to pull it out and try cleaning it, but the job would be a real bitch. The owner suggested to me today that I might try spraying some Seafoam in there and letting it soak.

Anyway, that's my update for today.

-Henry
 

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FWIW, I accidentally induced the sticking high idle on my M1100 Evo. I added O2 manipulators and no amount of cajoling or air filter screw adjustment brought back that nice lumpy idle. Reverting to the stock O2 sensors did not fix the issue. Air screws were open +10% from factory settings. Fine tuning the screws and closing them a bit returned the bike to normal. These air screws are very sensitive. A small variation drastically affected normal engine idle speed.
 

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Mine had the same issue till the 7500 mile service. Turns out two of the valves that normally dont go out of alignment were way off. Anyways my bike no longer has the high ide sticking issue when coming off throttle.
 

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Dude, I have just one thing to say to you about this:

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE?!?!?

Notes for others who want to try this: The idle air screws are behind while plastic plugs on the outboard sides of the throttle bodies. No need to remove the tank. Push on the centers of the plugs with a scribe and they pop in; then you can easily reach in and pry the plugs out. My screws hit full stop after about 3/16 turn. I just closed them all the way and left them like that.

Now, for the good stuff. My idle has been behaving itself lately, so no noticeable change there. BUT... My heavens, what an improvement in the low-end running. The bike now pulls cleanly from 1500 RPM. I can putt down the road at 3000 RPM and there is no hunting or surge whatsoever. All the decel pop is gone. The bike is much smoother and quieter from idle to midrange.

I kid you not. Don't know if this is a typical result, but if I had just spent $300 for an ECU reflash, this is what I would have expected. This is a MUST HAVE modification, and it takes two minutes and costs nothing.

Very, very excited about this. I'm not imagining it. This is a really big deal. No, you will not end up with ten more horsepower, but after 14,000 miles, this is the first time my bike has ever run right below 4000 RPM.

Thanks so much.

-Henry
Same here. Monster S2R 1000 2006. Had the 3000RPM idling problem on and off since I bought the bike last year. One screw was open almost one full turn and the other 1/4 of a turn. Closed both, problem gone, bike behaving much better at low range. This bike has a stepper motor for regulating air at idle, there is no need for more air. THANK YOU !
 
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