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2000 M900Sie, 2003 Aprilia RSV Mille-R, 2x 1981Guzzi Monzas, IWL Pity, Piaggio Hexagon, PX Vespa
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi All,

I am the proud new owner on a 2000 M900Sie, bought blind (yeah I know but it was at the other end of the country and going to see it would have out 25% on the price) on the basis of pictures and long telephone conversations with the P.O. who is a really nice guy and seems very honest.

This is a bike I have been looking for while, I wanted the hoop framed bike (no digital stuff in the clocks) and I wanted an ’S’, comes with carbon bling and an Öhlins shock and adjustable forks. The one I found is MINT! 55tkm on it, 2 owners and it is as it left the factory, every nut and bolt, not a mark on it. Dry weather only and Full-Service-History up till 47tkm.

However, when the bike was delivered it wouldn’t start and despite the Battery showing 13.5V it didn’t even have enough power to close the relay to put the lights on. So after lots of bench testing the relays with help (thanks PUNCH) a brand new Battery got all of the electrics working as they should and the bike starts first push of the button.

BUT it runs like crap. It needs lots of clutch slip to get it going and pops and bangs into the Airbox, jerks, bogs and is down on power. It is basically unrideable.

What I have checked/know:

The last TüV (Roadworthiness test here in Germany) showed 1.2% Co at idle. April 2018

Compression shows 150psi and 155psi H&V - Cold motor WOT

I drained the fuel and tried new fuel, the same.

Pulled the Pump, Filter and lines. As the P.O. said, the Filter and Lines are new and correctly fitted.

Air Temp Sensor shows the correct resistance and I bench tested it with the help of a thermometer and the wife's hairdryer, all good.

Engine Temp Sensor was replaced last year, Receipt came with the bike and the resistance also shows what it should.

Sidestand switch works as it should. I will disable it anyway next step just to be sure

All Sensor wires have good continuity to the ECU

Ecu has an extra earth wire

My Neighbour bought my old 92 900SS which has a 2000 Monster i.e. Motor and loom and he is happy for me to use parts from it to test (he is a very nice guy) so I swapped the ECU out for his which has the DP map in it. The bike still ran crap but less lean but the bucking and giving full throttle in 1st just made it bog

The Rev counter doesn’t drop or cut out when the bike is running badly (i had this symptom before with a bad CPS sensor) but this obviously doesn’t mean its good. I have another somewhere to test

I am having problems connecting GUZZIDIAG for some reason (related to the problem?) but it did connect for about 30sec and hectically wrote down what I saw, CO trim at 0, TPS showed 430mV, air Temp was no reading. I have ordered and new LONLEC cable with the hope it will work better than my old one.

Whilst checking the Injector contacts for corrosion I noticed the injectors will rotate in their housing, not loosely but two fingers of pressure will move them gently. Normal?


So I am kinda at my wit's end. The bike needs Valves and Belts doing (i bought some EXACTFIT with new bearings) so will do that next anyway and while it's torn down I guess I’ll set/check the TPS setting (which still has the factory yellow paint on it, as does most of the rest of the bike. I was hoping to ride the bike a little before getting stuck in, but is is what it is. :(

HELP!

thanks in advance

Chris
 

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Are you dropping a cylinder? Maybe check the connections to the coils? I know the rear coil under the seat on my bike had a broken spade connector that would intermittently cause loss of spark. I also had an issue when I first got my bike where it would 'cough' into the airbox and wasn't running right, which I fixed by adjusting the throttle bodies. Just a thought. I'd check the spark plugs to confirm, I'd guess one of them is fouled... Just the opinion of a rolly chair mechanic =)
 

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2000 M900Sie, 2003 Aprilia RSV Mille-R, 2x 1981Guzzi Monzas, IWL Pity, Piaggio Hexagon, PX Vespa
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Discussion Starter #3
Hi, I had both plugs out for the Compression test, both brownish and looked OK. I have unplugged just about everything on the bike (Running related), cleaned, nipped up (spade connectors), and pushed back on. I have even started opening up parts of the loom sheathing to have a peek.

I have had a 2V Duke pretty much consistently the last ... 22 years and have never had this problem manifest itself this way. Crank sensor is first on my to-do list tomorrow, its easy and i have one that i know to be good.
 

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Some of the spare parts the prior owner changed leads me to think they were trying to find the same issue. I would wait to get your cables and see if you can connect to read what is going on. IIRC air pressure sensor in the ecu was not uncommon failure.

Any chance you can pick up a stock ecu of the same type to experiment with other than your buddies off the monster? I would hate to hear his got damaged in testing and if you have a back up you can play with mapping more freely. Punch can get you heading in the right direction if it gets that far.

Compression is not that far off checking valves with a leakdown might be better but if you have play on all openers and no leakage at valves you should be in the acceptable range. Test for air leaks at the throttle bodies, I have had some where a seal was bad and the throttle bodies had incorrect air feed at times. A set of used throttle bodies fixed the issue.

Talk to the prior owner and with no accusations see if he has any clues or can put you in touch with his mechanic who may know much more.
 

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test the fuel pressure, do it with the tank down in case a hose is being crimped. i had an m900ie years ago that crimped the return when the tank went down making it run really rich.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi DUCVET and BELTER, thanks for the replies.

The P.O. was into doing his own spannering up to the point of belts and valves, the Invoices that came with the bike and show the Engine Temp Sensor and Fuel Filter also show Oil and Air Filter and Plugs as well as things like Bar grips. He was/is very fastidious and thats reflected in the condition of the bike - which still stuns me.

I did call he and he seemed very perplexed, and once i told him hadn't called to squeeze money out of him, dropped his guard but nevertheless he maintains when the bike was put away for winter in October it ran fine but that he hasn't ridden it since. He suggested a Marten (German Ferret) had been nibbling wires over winter which is quite a commen problem here. Still doesn't mean he had the same issue as me but he seems extremely genuine.

I did try the ECU from the other bike in the garage, and apart from less popping it still ran like crap and, thankfully, was undamaged by the experience. So thats further down my list of suspects now. Mapping, yes, I am already driving PUNCH mental with mails! ;)

Leakdown test iI will do too, have time today.

Throttlebodies ... ok, the seals on the spindles? I have checked airleaks like that before with some grease on the spindles to "show me the way" in the past. Would it help in this instance?

Fuel Lines: Thanks Brad, since having an SSIE for many years and having exactly that happen i am very aware of fuel line routing (quite why the tank outlets point backwards when everything then turns and goes forward is another Italian mystery, probaly to do with lift the tank but still seem odd) and i look for a pressure gauge in the garage, i think we have one for that somewhere.

Thanks again for all your help.

Chris
 

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If the other ECU had similar low throttle issues then it is not the map.
Weird it is crap low down but OK when it can get up to 5k RPM.
This could be a long shot, but crappy earth to ECU and/or engine.
Crappy earth can make voltages sensed by the ECU way off and the bike "thinks" sensors of all sorts are providing correct signals but they may not.
At higher RPM more current is flowing and hence heating up crap joint to make it come good.
I know I asked via email, but did you test the Lonelec cables and your Mac on your old, now neighbour's bike?
IAW diag also allows you to read fault codes, as far asI recall, even in the 15M ECU.
 

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2000 M900Sie, 2003 Aprilia RSV Mille-R, 2x 1981Guzzi Monzas, IWL Pity, Piaggio Hexagon, PX Vespa
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Discussion Starter #8
A quick update in between.

The CPS sensor i wanted to use to swap out/test, typically is a one mount hole version, my bike has 2. However i did check the air gap reduced it from 0.8 to 0.6mm by removing one of the 3 shims. I'll order a new sensor, the FIAT ones are cheap enough. The symptoms are much like the ones Brad described in his BLOG with the ST3 that had a bad CPS. Right through the rev ranges, but at 5K its possible to hold a smooth throttle. Whack the throttle to WOT, it'll bog, then pick up but doesn't feel like its reving willingly.

The new LONLEC cables arrived and do work much better. Managed to read the map thats in the bike and up the CO trim to 39. But i now can't adjust it again for some reason. Both Temp sensors reacted as expected as i warmed the bike up, air temp staying constant and engine Temp going up slowly as it should.

Sidestand switch now disabled.

ECU has a new separate earth direct to the Battery. I'll read the DP map from the nieghbours bike later.
 

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check to see if air pressure is the same between the 2 different ecu's.
Numbers look fine to me.

Do you have any way to check CO? (tailpipe emissions).

Does it smell rich?
what do the plugs look like?
running poor down low and then improving could be the extra air it is being fed.
If the bike was fine when parked and after some down time has stopped running well it is a hunt for what changed. maps do not change but corrosion on sensor connections can increase resistance and richen mixtures. Dialectic grease can prevent electrical connections so it you find wires packed with grease clean them out and tighten terminals if possible.

I am sure you checked air filter for animal signs , eaten wires is going to show more as a intermittent issue or a complete failure. check wiring at the steering neck some times there can be a break in the harness but again it would unlikely be a running issue just something to look for.

look for fuel pressure issues best done with a gauge. look for blockage at the fuel pump such as a clogged screen.
look for aftermarket parts such as coils, verify they are correct. spray some carb cleaner around the throttle body shafts listening for engine changes to indicate air leaks.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
OK. Decided to just start tearing the bike down out of mixture of frustration and wanting it sorted.

Reset the TPS as per Brads guide (all various throttle stops wound out and throttle cable disconnected) to 150mV (as side note GUZZIDIAG wont show a TPS voltage below 176mV so I used the A+C TPS wires and a Multimeter.
Then i set the LH Throttle bodys idle screw to 404mV and GUZZIDIAG showed the same.

The Airfilter and Airbox are spotless, i would eat my dinner off of either one happily.

I have cleaned all the ECU related connections, with brake cleaner and a small brass bristled brush. Also cheacked the continuity, though didnt measure resistance to all ECU ports.

Plugs look fine, Brownish but generally clean. Doesn't smell rich at all. CO analyser i can probably use at my local Ducati garage if i chuck a tenner in the TIP box.

What is now screwing with my head is that the RH throttle is wider open than the left, pushed open by the spring that sits in the throttle balance mechanism (which doesn't appear to be on the TBs on Brad's page see pik screw 6). I can push the RH Butterfly closed quite easily with my finger and that spring is compressed. I checked and doubled checked the RH side of the throttle body but nothing is wound in anywhere near close enough to have an influence. To my mind this prohibits the throttles being balanced (I seriously hope i am wrong but at the same time it might explain alot) but i cant see a way around it. That and i am gonna need a shrink-ray to use on my hands when it comes to balancing them and getting my hand in there to adjust the balance screw when the airbox is back on.

thats it for today. Its German national Beer Day, so even though i am not German i feel it would be rude not to indulge a little.

thanks to all for the help. I appreciate you all taking the time!

Chris
 

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Did you almost completely unwind the balancing screws? Looking at yellow paint seems that you have to wind in a lot.

Balancing with airbox and all other things mounted is easy.
Switch off the engine
Open the throttle until the screws is about horizontal
Rotate it with a long screwdriver from the front of the bike
Retest etc
983715
983716
 

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yeah, that looks like it's way out of balance. looks like someone who doesn't understand what they're doing has been playing and gotten way out of their depth without knowing how to go back.
 

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yeah that TB is way out, it looks like it's fully backed out? you know you need vacuum gauges to measure it? turning that screw in with eventually put tension on that spring, the pin that the spring rides on will slide in the housing. Mind you, that paint on the screw and the paint on the metal tab would have been touching from the factory.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yeah it "clicked" in my head when i was in the shower thursday eveing that the adjuster closes the RH throttle, i guess i was in a other-way-round mindset at the time.
Its been 10 years since i did this last and inbetween i've been spannering mostly on carbed Guzzis and my RSV Mille. Both of which are a different kettle of fish.
I have balancers so no problem and I'll wind it back in to the yellow factory paint as a start point.
I am gonna leave that next step for now, while its apart I will do the belts and valves in case they do have any influence on the problem. Its running so bad i think synchronizing them as is ( if they are not the issue) would be difficult.
 

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In my little experience valve closing clearances, cam timing and tb cleaning have a big impact on balance.
Better fine tune it at the end.
Your tb is very clean (less than 100km done?), maybe the p.o. tryed to cleand and balance it and failed...
 

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Discussion Starter #16
In to the valve clearances now.

All of the openers are too tight, 0.05 or less.
H exhaust opener 0,00.

Closers don't seem quite so bad.

Fingers crossed no burnt valves but i did do a leak down test and was seeing 15-20% leakage and heard hissing from the TBs.

I'll try again once i am done with the valves.

In the dark part if my lizzard brain i remember something about Desmo valve trains not being as accurate as a conventional valve train when doing a leak down. Or it could be my head making stuff up. Again.

More when I'm done.

Chris
 

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I think it's almost impossible to have both opener tight and closer ok unless the cam had become bigger :) or someone put wrong opener.
Maybe better recheck closer clearance.

Which leak down tester did you use?
Searching on web shops all tester up to 100€ seem the same of 2$ aliexpress model :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Right, all the openers were tight, 2 closers were tighter than i could measure, but no drag. The other two closers were at 0.05mm. i left them as is.

Leak down tester is a cheap ebay tester, si don't know how accurate but there was a proper hiss coming from the TBs so between 15-20% sounded realistic.

So once they valves were set i balanced the TBs which was actually quite quick. Air bleeds set too.

It runs better and now holds and idle but still has the stumble and WOT just bogs it down.
It dies ride better in tbe richer warm up 3000 revs cycle. Not great but less crap.

Test ride was marginally
better but still unrideable

Video show it stumbling at idle.

CPS next i guess
 

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Did you try disconnecting horizontal plug (or coil) and than the vertical just to know if the problem is only on one cylinder?
If so try to swap plug coil, cable, plug.
If not can be the pickup, no ecu error?
 
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