Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So last night I decide to take my Monster 1100, which is just about to hit 600 miles, on a long ride through some of the rural roads around Portland. The night before, after reading about a serious accident on this board, I decided I needed to read up on the basics and pulled 'Twist of the wrist II' off my shelf and gave it another quick read. I decided that I was not practicing alot of what I had been taught, enjoying the thrill of my new bike rather than learning how to handle it properly. So the ride had a purpose.

It started out well, slow cornering, concentrating on choosing my lines, getting on the throttle, slow steady pull through the turns, looking where I'm going. I approach a sharp right turn at fairly low speed (10-15mph), get on the throttle, counter-steer into the turn and then about half way through the back tire starts to skitter. I did the exact opposite of what I had read the night before (and been taught in the MSF class). It happened slow enough that I knew precisely what went wrong. I just don't know why I reacted that way (lack of experience, of course). Here's a break down in slow motion:

:) smooth entry -- throttle on -- counter steer -- smooth -- smooth -- skitter -- skitter -- :confused: WTF? (turns head to look at bike) -- throttle off -- slide -- :eek: -- crash

I wish I could blame the gravel, or the fact that it was hidden in the shadows of the trees, but Keith Code clearly explains in his book what will happen if you go off the throttle on a turn. I have no one and nothing to blame but myself. My 'Survival Reaction' kicked in. I have no idea why I turned my head to look at the bike, as if I could will it back upright. An (expensive) lesson learned.

I ended up on my right side half-way into the on-coming lane. I instantly got up and pulled the bike off the ground (not considering any injuries I might have). I pushed it to the side of the road, 30 secs before a car came through the turn. This could have been much worse.

Damage:
Broken rear right turn signal, right foot peg and rear brake snapped off, clutch cover scraped and dented. Front brake level bent, bar end scraped off.

Injuries (Leather armored fieldsheer jacket, puma boots, jeans with strap on shin/knee guards, gloves)
Forearm: Minor scraps (right through the leather)
Right hip: Bruises & scrapes (right where armour pads would be on my leathers)
General soreness on my right side (from the 375 Italian beauty on my leg)
Ego: mangled beyond recognition

The only funny part of this is that on Monday the dealer calls me with 'your frame sliders are in'. 'See you on Friday when I hit 600' I say.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
182 Posts
Sorry to hear about your accident :(

Hope you get back up and running soon!

Out of curiosity was the 1100 your first bike?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Sorry to hear about your accident :(

Hope you get back up and running soon!

Out of curiosity was the 1100 your first bike?
First bike was a Suzuki GS500F which I rode for three years. Never crashed it. I came close a few times during my first year, but always seemed to recover. I had gone though this same route at least 50 times on the gs500, and at least 5 times on the 1100 (including the 2 days prior).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
698 Posts
Doh! Sorry to hear about your crash. Sometimes the brain, like you mentioned goes into Survival Reaction mode and we loose sight of what we are actually supposed to do.

I'm sure had you just kept the throttle consistent the bike would have sorted itself out and you would have thought "that was a scary slide!" But live and learn man.

Time for some aftermarket gear :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,908 Posts
No need to be pissed or embarassed. It happens to everyone sooner or later.

The good thing is you were smart enough to wear gear and survived it in one piece. The bike can be repaired. You might be able to upgrade your bike and leathers in the process with help from your insurance.

The other good thing is you are open to learning and willing to improve. Some people just repeat the same mistake over and over again.

-M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
Glad to hear your OK. Be glad you didn't do the same thing at 65mph and highside like I did a few weeks ago. I think I need to take the superbike school and learn how to ride through the rear wheel slide. I have no experience with it and chopped the throttle just like you did because of my lack of experience.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,137 Posts
You are lucky you didnt highside. From what ive heard throttle off usually leads to a highside. I got on a lowside after reading the same book because I was too hard on the gas on the corners and as soon as I started sliding I gave it more gas and it slid perfectly with me behind it. I was going 65mph so it was totaled. Glad to hear you are ok though.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
838 Posts
I had a moment myself last night up on Skyline. I hit some gravel while in a corner. I stayed on the throttle and I just rode it out.

They chip sealed that road and it's difficult to see the friggin boulders that wandering cars kick onto the roadway. It's been a while since ODOT cleaned off the roads around Portland - I guess they are just too busy doing whatever it is they do.

Sorry to hear about the new Monster. She's not a garage queen anymore! Glad you were wearing gear and glad you are OK.

L.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Sorry to hear about the new Monster. She's not a garage queen anymore!

L.
Hah! Very true. I cleared out a new spot in the garage for her last week and took some pretty pictures. Her pristine condition didn't last long!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
You are lucky you didnt highside. From what ive heard throttle off usually leads to a highside. I got on a lowside after reading the same book because I was too hard on the gas on the corners and as soon as I started sliding I gave it more gas and it slid perfectly with me behind it. I was going 65mph so it was totaled. Glad to hear you are ok though.
I went into the turn at maybe 10mph, with the throttle on I maybe got up to 15-20mph near the apex. I assumed that when I went throttle off, the weight transferred to the front suspension, then bounced back, causing even more instability. It didn't feel like it was trying to thow me off, but I was leaned over pretty good. Either way, I need more practice. Maybe it's time to buy a cheap dirtbike :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
210 Posts
sorry to here about your lowside. I probably would have reacted the same way except that I would never have looked over at my bike LOL.

I can't help but think that that could have been a contributing factor in your crash. You broke line of sight with the road and off she went. That and maybe you were going a little too slow and your bike was unstable? I dunno I'm just throwing some idea out there. Obviously it's too late to change anything now.

You don't have to tell me twice though....the first time I layed my bike down I was out practicing u-turns and fixated on a pole, freaked out, jumped off and watched her go down LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
230 Posts
Once your rear stars sliding, all bets are off. There's no guarantee you can recover, no matter what you do. It all depends on how fast you're going and how much gravel there is. One time I took a left hand turn about 15-20 mph, unbeknownst to me the turn was covered in gravel, stayed on the gas nice and even, bike nonetheless slid out hard from under me.

Another time I was taking an uphill right hand sweeper about 40-45 mph, then hit a large patch of gravel. The entire bike slid (it didn't go down) and drifted into the oncoming lane as I eased off the gas, as the bike straightened up. (I don't know what to do in the case your entire bike drifts, does anyone know what the appropriate reaction is??). Then once on clean pavement again I quickly leaned back over to my lane. This was scary, thank God no cars were coming down the hill.

Then yet another time, I was making a right turn, merging into traffic from a standstill. About halfway through the turn maybe 15mph, I got on the gas too hard, and the rear spun out FAST, probabaly 60 degrees. Instinctively I chopped the gas, the bike stood up fairly abruptly (not enough to throw me off), went into a tankslapper, then recovered. If I had stayed on the gas, the rear wheel would have just continued spinning until the entire bike slides out from under you.

Then yet TWO more times, I was taking a right turn maybe 25-30mph, leaned way over, giving it gas through the turn, then before I know it without warning CRASH! the bike falls out hard from under me as I go down. I think on those two times I was just leaned way too over and ran out of traction. Definitely nothing I could have done.

Bottom line is If recovering from slides was so easy, road racers would never go down. And when you're going into a slide, you literally only have a split second to make a decision, and pray for the best.

God bless all you guys, and arrive alive!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
230 Posts
sorry to here about your lowside. I probably would have reacted the same way except that I would never have looked over at my bike LOL.

I can't help but think that that could have been a contributing factor in your crash. You broke line of sight with the road and off she went. That and maybe you were going a little too slow and your bike was unstable? I dunno I'm just throwing some idea out there. Obviously it's too late to change anything now.

You don't have to tell me twice though....the first time I layed my bike down I was out practicing u-turns and fixated on a pole, freaked out, jumped off and watched her go down LOL.
LOL, I laugh because I once did this too. I was making a right hand U-turn, fixated on the bushes, freaked out and stopped while leaned over, tried to hold the bike up, gravity won, and me and the bike fell down :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Once your rear stars sliding, all bets are off. There's no guarantee you can recover, no matter what you do. It all depends on how fast you're going and how much gravel there is. One time I took a left hand turn about 15-20 mph, unbeknownst to me the turn was covered in gravel, stayed on the gas nice and even, bike nonetheless slid out hard from under me.

Another time I was taking an uphill right hand sweeper about 40-45 mph, then hit a large patch of gravel. The entire bike slid (it didn't go down) and drifted into the oncoming lane as I eased off the gas, as the bike straightened up. (I don't know what to do in the case your entire bike drifts, does anyone know what the appropriate reaction is??). Then once on clean pavement again I quickly leaned back over to my lane. This was scary, thank God no cars were coming down the hill.

Then yet another time, I was making a right turn, merging into traffic from a standstill. About halfway through the turn maybe 15mph, I got on the gas too hard, and the rear spun out FAST, probabaly 60 degrees. Instinctively I chopped the gas, the bike stood up fairly abruptly (not enough to throw me off), went into a tankslapper, then recovered. If I had stayed on the gas, the rear wheel would have just continued spinning until the entire bike slides out from under you.

Then yet TWO more times, I was taking a right turn maybe 25-30mph, leaned way over, giving it gas through the turn, then before I know it without warning CRASH! the bike falls out hard from under me as I go down. I think on those two times I was just leaned way too over and ran out of traction. Definitely nothing I could have done.

Bottom line is If recovering from slides was so easy, road racers would never go down. And when you're going into a slide, you literally only have a split second to make a decision, and pray for the best.

God bless all you guys, and arrive alive!
Thanks for sharing all of these scary moments. I feel strangely comforted knowing incidents like these are more commmon than I thought :D ( but not too comforted since odds are it may happen again :) ) I think your absolutely right. All you can ever really do is lessen your chances of an accident by practicing good riding skills, proper gear and remaining hypervigilant on the road.

Thanks and take care all!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Elman,

You said, "I approach a sharp right turn at fairly low speed (10-15mph), get on the throttle, counter-steer into the turn and then about half way through the back tire starts to skitter. I did the exact opposite of what I had read the night before (and been taught in the MSF class). It happened slow enough that I knew precisely what went wrong. I just don't know why I reacted that way (lack of experience, of course). Here's a break down in slow motion:

smooth entry -- throttle on -- counter steer -- smooth -- smooth -- skitter -- skitter -- WTF? (turns head to look at bike) -- throttle off -- slide -- -- crash"

What exactly did you read? You have us wondering what you did opposite.

I have Twist II and I have been through it quite extensively plus making many notes in the sidebar and I've been to Keith's school for six sessions. I am certainly still on a learning curve but from your play by play I can see throttle on before you've changed direction(counter steer) is not how I've been taught to do it.

Rule Number One - Once the throttle is cracked* on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly and constantly* throughout the remainder of the turn.

Cracked on = opened a slight bit into operation
Constantly = in an unchanging manner

The objective for cornering is to sense the right speed for the turn. Then at the turn point make the change of direction then get the throttle cracked on asap to maintain your speed through the middle getting you setup for the drive out through the exit. As you pass the middle and see your exit you're picking the bike up and the more upright the bike is the more throttle can be applied.

It is done this way to comply with machine design. Maintaining balance, ideal 40% front - 60% rear. Set it and forget it, and get your attention on to the next task.

You're definitely on the right track reading Keith Code. But all you read will really pop when you can apply it with coaching in a safe environment. Plan to hook up with some school time. It's the best thing I've ever done for myself and my riding.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Elman,

You said, "I approach a sharp right turn at fairly low speed (10-15mph), get on the throttle, counter-steer into the turn and then about half way through the back tire starts to skitter. I did the exact opposite of what I had read the night before (and been taught in the MSF class). It happened slow enough that I knew precisely what went wrong. I just don't know why I reacted that way (lack of experience, of course). Here's a break down in slow motion:

smooth entry -- throttle on -- counter steer -- smooth -- smooth -- skitter -- skitter -- WTF? (turns head to look at bike) -- throttle off -- slide -- -- crash"

What exactly did you read? You have us wondering what you did opposite.

I have Twist II and I have been through it quite extensively plus making many notes in the sidebar and I've been to Keith's school for six sessions. I am certainly still on a learning curve but from your play by play I can see throttle on before you've changed direction(counter steer) is not how I've been taught to do it.

Rule Number One - Once the throttle is cracked* on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly and constantly* throughout the remainder of the turn.

Cracked on = opened a slight bit into operation
Constantly = in an unchanging manner

The objective for cornering is to sense the right speed for the turn. Then at the turn point make the change of direction then get the throttle cracked on asap to maintain your speed through the middle getting you setup for the drive out through the exit. As you pass the middle and see your exit you're picking the bike up and the more upright the bike is the more throttle can be applied.

It is done this way to comply with machine design. Maintaining balance, ideal 40% front - 60% rear. Set it and forget it, and get your attention on to the next task.

You're definitely on the right track reading Keith Code. But all you read will really pop when you can apply it with coaching in a safe environment. Plan to hook up with some school time. It's the best thing I've ever done for myself and my riding.
My hastily written description may not have been 100% accurate. I do remember steering into the turn before throttle on. My major error was throttle off (violating Rule Number One). Upon futher reflection (skimming through Twist II again), I have decided that I may have steered too slowly for my speed, forcing my to lean over more to stay on the line. When my back end started to slide, I over-charged my lean-angle credit card. :)

You're definitely right about the school time. A little hands-on coaching would go along way for me. Hopefully they'll offer some around my area soon...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
871 Posts
Sorry to hear about your low side (glad your okay), nothing to be embarrassed about, it's a 2 wheeled vehicle that will fall over standing still that we push to the limits.

As every year of riding experience passes me by I noticed that the chicken strips on my rear tires got smaller and smaller until they almost have disappeared (this is street riding, not track). I often wonder if I'm getting to the point where I'm pushing the envelope too far based on my skill level and the fact that 95% of my riding is on public roads. I guess the question I'm asking is, am I leaning the bike too far over on public roads where there are so many unknowns?

My only bad experience was a tank slapper 14 years ago on my 900ss. That was scary enough for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Montducati, you make a very salient point about pushing the envelope a little too far while on public streets.

My tone, riding on the street, has become much milder. Attribute the change in attitude to my experience on the track. The track is the safest place to run drills and experiment.

There are too many unknowns on the street and it is a very rare occasion that sets up for flicking the bike and hanging off. Plus that sort of riding style draws too much attention to itself and I'm not interested in being coerced to have to interact with the police. But I do look for turn points, reference points, end of brake areas. I continue to practice throttle control and most of all keeping myself within my lane.

As for leaning the bike over too far on the streets, if you're asking the question you may already have your answer.

There is a great mis-conception of lean angle and being fast. And the subject is covered extensively in Twist Of the Wrist II. If you could use less lean angle, which will maintain a higher level of traction, and run the corner as fast or faster than when you use your max lean angle, would you?
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top