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I may be wrong on this one, but I thought that the rule regarding weight issues and the Ducati was changed for the 2012 season because of the 1199 ...

Ducati just didn't end up using it.. But the rule was in place... And Checa had to carry some extra heft this past season.
 

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Its always annoyed me why ducati think that they can have a bigger engine without any restraints. Its not like they didnt run with the same displacement and have the most successful wsb in history and then chose to go bigger . They have upped the cc for years now but would have a total melt down if honda/yamaha/kawasaki came along with a 1200 to match.

Its like mike tyson saying I only want to fight in the middleweight devision but I want the same frame.
 

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Ducati had several reasons for requesting a return to a displacement advantage for twins over fours (remember the era of 1000cc twins vs 750 fours). The main reason cited was to allow milder tuning for greater reliability and less expense. The 999 was competitive with 1000cc fours but was fragile at the kind of extreme tuning required to be competitive.

When the 1098RS was introduced there was some air restriction but no weight penalty. I believe both were increased after Bayliss won the crown, and then increased again after Checa won in 2011.

I wonder whether the 1098/1198 race engines really were more reliable or less expensive than the 999's. I also wonder how reliable the Pani will be in race form.
 

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Its always annoyed me why ducati think that they can have a bigger engine without any restraints. Its not like they didnt run with the same displacement and have the most successful wsb in history and then chose to go bigger . They have upped the cc for years now but would have a total melt down if honda/yamaha/kawasaki came along with a 1200 to match.

Its like mike tyson saying I only want to fight in the middleweight devision but I want the same frame.
I-4's always made more power. Still do. The difference in displacment gave Ducati a chance, not an advantage. The advantage they have is in the configuration, not the displacement: the L-twins power pulses are more widely spaced, resulting in better tire grip. Hence the BMW's all conquering s1000rr is experiencing the same results as just about all I-4's that came before it, finishing behind a L/V configured engines in Italian bikes. :)
 

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I-4's always made more power. Still do. The difference in displacment gave Ducati a chance, not an advantage. The advantage they have is in the configuration, not the displacement: the L-twins power pulses are more widely spaced, resulting in better tire grip. Hence the BMW's all conquering s1000rr is experiencing the same results as just about all I-4's that came before it, finishing behind a L/V configured engines in Italian bikes. :)
Yes but they proved with the 999 that they didn`t need an engine displacement advantage . Yes they were costly but so are the bmw s1000r engines . What the rule makers are saying by adding weight /air restrictors is that if they didnt restrict then the all conquering Ducati would run away with it again . I want to see Ducati win but not with an advantage.
 

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Yes but they proved with the 999 that they didn`t need an engine displacement advantage . Yes they were costly but so are the bmw s1000r engines . What the rule makers are saying by adding weight /air restrictors is that if they didnt restrict then the all conquering Ducati would run away with it again . I want to see Ducati win but not with an advantage.
Ducati's advantage is in the configuration, not the displacement. The term "advantage" is used by I-4 apologists. :) The reason *twins*, not Ducati, ;) are granted larger displacements is to try and have different technologies racing against each other on the same grid. Otherwise, we'd have nothing but boring I-4's. Honda raced a V-twin and won, but because they can't sell large displacement twins to their hoards of squids, they revereted back to I-4's. The only Yamaha to ever win a WSBK championship had a modified crank, to act more like a twin re power delivery than a typical I-4.

Ducati doesn't have an advantage once the racing field is equalised by rules that *accommodate* twins with a larger displacement because I-4's make more peak power. They are just better bikes. The others could field twins too if they wanted, but you can't make a twin that fits your motorcycle, and your out board engine, and snowmoblie and personal water craft. ;) Look at the *price advantage* the Japanese (and their protoge BMW) has over the Ducati, because they can use a cheap to build I-4 because of the economies of scale.:)

Aprillia, in the mean time, and unlike BMW which had decades of WSBK racing results at their feet before they entered WSBK, and *still* chose to use an I-4, trying to make it a winner through electronics, has seen the light and have won the last 2 out of 3 years with their V configured 4. Ducati's L- won in between. ;)

If Ducati has an advantage, it's not about cc's. More likely because they don't build weekend recreational products that use a modular, mass produced engine that fits several other other applications. They build motorcycles of distinction that sell for more money due to the uniquiness and singular application of their L-twin engines that can be traced back to the upstart victories at Imola in 1972. :) What pedigree do any of the I-4's have other than they are an Italian design? Last year's model? :)

No such thing as a displacement advantage. Displacement accommodation, yes. :)
 

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...No such thing as a displacement advantage. Displacement accommodation, yes...
I get your point, but then we have to ask: if moving to 1198cc wasn't an advantage to Ducati (because of all the restrictions and weight penalty 'accommodations'), then why do it?

Just speculating here, but maybe Ducati felt they needed bigger ccs for their production models to keep in pace with the I-4's 'more-bhp-sells' marketing. After all, does anybody think the 999 motor wasn't powerful enough for the street? The only real reason to increase capacity, if it wasn't for racing advantage, would have been for marketing.

The interesting thing to ask at this point is: why the 1199 superquaddro? Ducati would probably have won again on the 'old' 1198 if those restrictions were eased, so why the expense of an entirely new motor and chassis? Is it just to keep up in the marketing 'bhp wars'? Or does this motor open up increased possibilities for future models on the street; perhaps finally closing the service intervals and cost gap to I-4s?
 

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Ducati's advantage is in the configuration, not the displacement.
No such thing as a displacement advantage. Displacement accommodation, yes. :)
Then according to your own argument ducati should be the same displacement as they dont gain any advantage by being bigger.As they were back in the 999 era.
 

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Then according to your own argument ducati should be the same displacement as they dont gain any advantage by being bigger.As they were back in the 999 era.
They were at a disadvantage racing against I-4's re the costs associated with running their engines at a very high and costly state of tune in order to make comparable power with litre I-4s. Racing litre to litre, the 999 did prove that the configurtation and technology of the Ducati L-twins is better at the WSBK level. :) It just costs more, but then we know Ducatis, unlike I-4's, are not known for bang for buck are they? :) The bigger displacement makes for less costly state of tune so Ducati's racing expenditures, or anybody who'd like to enter a twin, will not be disproportinately higher than that of I-4's. :)

The major changes being considered in MotoGP and WSBK, seem to centre on reducing costs to make not only racing but winning at those levels accessible to more teams. Once again, Ducati in particular is given no advantage since anybody can enter a twin; it's just another accommodation so they can race and win without spending a boat load of money more than the I-4 manufacturers. :)

"Displacement advantage" = sore loser speak. :)
 

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I get your point, but then we have to ask: if moving to 1198cc wasn't an advantage to Ducati (because of all the restrictions and weight penalty 'accommodations'), then why do it?

Just speculating here, but maybe Ducati felt they needed bigger ccs for their production models to keep in pace with the I-4's 'more-bhp-sells' marketing. After all, does anybody think the 999 motor wasn't powerful enough for the street? The only real reason to increase capacity, if it wasn't for racing advantage, would have been for marketing.

The interesting thing to ask at this point is: why the 1199 superquaddro? Ducati would probably have won again on the 'old' 1198 if those restrictions were eased, so why the expense of an entirely new motor and chassis? Is it just to keep up in the marketing 'bhp wars'? Or does this motor open up increased possibilities for future models on the street; perhaps finally closing the service intervals and cost gap to I-4s?
Good questions. Maybe, sometimes, there are changes made in the name of progress, even when progress isn't needed, (monocoque frame?) and of course, sales are driven by spec sheets. Look at the new HP4 s1krr. The bike has always made more power than any Ducati, but it hasn't won shit at WSBK, and it gets more power yet. A new crank ala cross plane might have been a better idea, but bragging rights are bragging rights. :) "Lets have even more of what hasn't worked." :) Well, maybe that's better than "let's bin a winning formula, and take a chance on a totally new design" like "somebody" else did. :rolleyes: And oh yeah, people it seems, were too put out by belts, another part of what makes Ducati special, so lets put their simple minds at ease because we all know, timing chains are trouble free. :rolleyes:

Buick brought back the "spirit" of Harley Earl, maybe Ducati needs to bring back the spirit of Dr T. :)
 

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^^^^Well actually Melandri won a bunch of races this year and probably would of won the Championship if he didn't get a double DNF at the end. I think it will be between Sykes and Melandri next season. I think Max was lucky to sqeak out a championship this year. I hope the Pani does well but I'm sure they need to refine it. Expect it to be inconsistent next season.
 

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^^^^Well actually Melandri won a bunch of races this year and probably would of won the Championship if he didn't get a double DNF at the end. I think it will be between Sykes and Melandri next season. I think Max was lucky to sqeak out a championship this year. I hope the Pani does well but I'm sure they need to refine it. Expect it to be inconsistent next season.
This was BMW's best year, and many have attributed that to the suspended Ducati factory team members joining the BMW effort this year, as much as Melandri's riding. So that's how many seasons that the bike all the "experts" pick as the *best* superbike out there, because they all agree it's the easiest one out there to ride at high speed, didn't win at the highest superbike racing series, where the *real* experts reside? What's that they say about racing...when the flag drops, the BS stops? :)
 

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do the twins still turn better than the point and shoot fours? we could always just stretch the tracks out a bit, add another straight or two, if we want to give and advantage to the i4's. Or make the track tighter when the advantage needs to be given back to the twins. haha. no, my point is the 1199 and mono-cocque had to be done because that is what people do. they use everything they know and understand to try and improve things. i really hope the 1199 just wipes everybody out next year.

go DUCATI !!!
 
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