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Insult to Injury

8463 Views 82 Replies 26 Participants Last post by Thirdway, Nov 21, 2012

stryder

Discussion Starter · Oct 27, 2012

So I'm at my "local" dealership this morning, same place I bought my bike new in 2005, buying oil and fuel filters and the sales guy tells me they're coming out with a touring version of.........................................the Diavel.

I look at the models on his floor, and he has like 4 new Diavels sitting there, 2 AMGs. (which I like ) And now, they're bringing out a *touring* version of a slow selling, expensive muscle bike as opposed to a real ST? :think:

Ducati's effed.

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Thirdway

· #41 · Nov 1, 2012

randy_l said:
Ha! I just spent the last 9 years and 90K miles on an '03 FZ1.

It was a fantastically capable bike that could do most everything very well. Lots of HP, comfortable ergos, and with some suspension mods it could flat-out rail. But, it has the sex appeal of a brick (especially the Gen I's) and other than a relatively small group of deeply disturbed fans it didn't really sell very well. Frankly, I'm surprised that Yamaha is still selling the model.

They are very reliable too. Well, except for mine I guess. After a 1500 mile trip last August where the bike ran as strong as ever, I got home and parked it in the garage and took off for Michigan for a family wedding. When I wheeled it out of the garage a week later it wouldn't start, and after some diagnostics it turns out that it had 50-60psi in all four cylinders. Regardless of the root cause, a fugly 9 year old bike with 90K miles isn't worth pouring money into.

Fortunately, I ended up coming across my ST3s ABS and I'm loving it. I've put on 2.5K miles in the last 6 weeks and the grin hasn't left my face (although I sometimes miss the rush of about 130 hp at the wheel ). I looked at the Multistrada as well, but to be honest I wasn't about to spend the kind of coin required to get one. I do like them though!

Randy

I had the gen1 FZ1 for 3 years. Did everything except handle. One of those bikes that makes you wonder why you want any other bike. No soul at all though, but very flexible.

tonered

· #42 · Nov 1, 2012

randy_l said:
Ha! I just spent the last 9 years and 90K miles on an '03 FZ1.

It was a fantastically capable bike that could do most everything very well. Lots of HP, comfortable ergos, and with some suspension mods it could flat-out rail. But, it has the sex appeal of a brick (especially the Gen I's) and other than a relatively small group of deeply disturbed fans it didn't really sell very well. Frankly, I'm surprised that Yamaha is still selling the model.

They are very reliable too. Well, except for mine I guess. After a 1500 mile trip last August where the bike ran as strong as ever, I got home and parked it in the garage and took off for Michigan for a family wedding. When I wheeled it out of the garage a week later it wouldn't start, and after some diagnostics it turns out that it had 50-60psi in all four cylinders. Regardless of the root cause, a fugly 9 year old bike with 90K miles isn't worth pouring money into.

Fortunately, I ended up coming across my ST3s ABS and I'm loving it. I've put on 2.5K miles in the last 6 weeks and the grin hasn't left my face (although I sometimes miss the rush of about 130 hp at the wheel ). I looked at the Multistrada as well, but to be honest I wasn't about to spend the kind of coin required to get one. I do like them though!

Randy

I was after the EFI'ed 2nd gen FZ. The used ones that were coming up were surprisingly more than the STs I found while trying to avoid the seemingly plagued 2006 models. With the addition of the necessary cases pushed me out of the market.

The 2007 I rode felt great right off the floor, but was just too much $$.

I see a lot of them running around and never any complaints from the owners. Of course, the soul conversation never comes up.

At the time, I was targetting a half faired bike also. In the end, I'm glad that I ended up with the full fairing on the ST. There lot of protection there.

Have a good one.

Stick

· #43 · Nov 2, 2012

bruce19 said:
I don't do this very often but yesterday I went to the Ducati site to check out their lineup. Honestly, there wasn't one bike that interested me. ... A new Supersport or new and sportier ST would do it for me. God it's so sad.

Maybe that's part of DUCATI's master plan. Make all of us whiners hold out, and then a couple years from now, produce a drop-dead gorgeous ST that every one of us would jump at!

dream on...

randy_l

· #44 · Nov 2, 2012

Thirdway said:
I had the gen1 FZ1 for 3 years. Did everything except handle. One of those bikes that makes you wonder why you want any other bike. No soul at all though, but very flexible.

Yeah, the bike really needs upgraded suspension. It wallowed like a drunken cow with the standard suspension, but it was transformed by re-valving the forks with Race Tech Gold with straight rate springs and a re-valve and 650 lb spring for the shock. Much better.

tonered said:
I was after the EFI'ed 2nd gen FZ. The used ones that were coming up were surprisingly more than the STs I found while trying to avoid the seemingly plagued 2006 models. With the addition of the necessary cases pushed me out of the market.

The 2007 I rode felt great right off the floor, but was just too much $$.

I see a lot of them running around and never any complaints from the owners. Of course, the soul conversation never comes up.

At the time, I was targetting a half faired bike also. In the end, I'm glad that I ended up with the full fairing on the ST. There lot of protection there.

Have a good one.

I really do like the Gen II FZ1, but there is one huge issue with the bike for my type of riding. When they went to EFI in 2006 (and sorted it out in 2007) they may have gained some top end power but lost at least 10% in gas mileage and almost a gallon of gas capacity. Range is about 165 miles, while the Gen I can go well over 225 miles. I do a lot of riding on the West Coast, where it's not unheard of for there to be 200 miles between gas stations.

Randy

tonered

· #45 · Nov 2, 2012

I did not know that. Less than 5gal? Yikes. That would have been instant buyers remorse for me. I agree that 200mi/tank is a minimum.

Have a good one.

stryder

Discussion Starter · #46 · Nov 12, 2012

here you go...

...now stop your complaining.

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Wonway

· #47 · Nov 12, 2012

stryder said:
...now stop your complaining.

I think you got it wrong.

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stryder

Discussion Starter · #48 · Nov 12, 2012

I was getting to that, you beat me to it.

I was trying to, you know, prepare the way for the shock of that Diavel.

I mean even this BMWK16 meets Polaris Vision Honda's looking good these days compared to the above:

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Wonway

· #49 · Nov 12, 2012

stryder said:
I was getting to that, you beat me to it. I was trying to, you know, prepare the way for the shock of that Diavel.

It makes me want to punch a baby.

Oops... can I say that here?

tonered

· #50 · Nov 12, 2012

Yes. You can say that. I feel the same way.

I'm almost at a loss for words. . . almost. I said above that Duc was dancing around the bullseye. Now, they're just dancing around the dartboard from somewhere in left field. What can they blend up next that no one is asking for?

I thought the local company that is kitting up DS touring Hypers made an ugly bike. It's now prudy in comparison.

I'll go on record right now saying that if Duc were to make a real SPORTtourer, there's no way of getting my interest. I'll be too damn ugly.

Have a good one.

tonered

· #51 · Nov 12, 2012

stryder said:
I was getting to that, you beat me to it. I was trying to, you know, prepare the way for the shock of that Diavel.

I mean even this BMWK16 meets Polaris Vision Honda's looking good these days compared to the above:

The CBR nose is kina blah, but better than the other choices.

Have a good one.

kismetcapitan

· #52 · Nov 13, 2012

looking at the lineup of the upcoming touring bikes, it has just occurred to me why no one is doing a sport touring bike with emphasis on *sport*.

it wouldn't take much to turn a Panigale or 1098 Streetfighter into a sport touring bike. New subframe, bigger screen, touring fairings, panniers. The simple conversion of the Diavel and Hypermotard into tourers proves this point.

But a new ST, based on a sportbike frame and with a recent racebred engine would cost what, $25K? And what does the market want at that price point? Either luxury (Goldwing, K1600GTL, etc), comfort (Harley tourers, the Diavel Strada), or adventure (R1200GS, Multistrada). The answer to demand for a sporty lightweight tourer is apparently in the 800cc class at the sub-$15K price point. The Hyperstrada is hideous, but I have no doubt that it will be quick and a LOT of fun, while adding touring capability, more power, and an up to date braking system - the Bosch 9ME system, first appearing on the BMW S1000RR, is brilliant. It's not the ABS (which is a nice safety backup), it's the very simple linked brakes. When everyone is raving about how incredible the braking is on the S1000RR despite having crap Brembo Goldline calipers (I have M4 monoblocs fitted on mine), what they're not getting is that they're only so good because the rear is being braked by computer, and it's optimal for conditions. The Panigale is the new king of braking, simply because it has better calipers with the same ABS pump and computer.

So again, why isn't anyone making a sub-500lb true sport touring bike with a true sport engine lifted out of the top of the line superbike (as is the design principle behind the ST4)?

Because no one would buy it at the price that it would cost. Well, I would, and possible quite a few here, but a worldwide demand of say, a thousand bikes, wouldn't make it past the boardroom. The closest modern equivalent to an ST, the BMW K1300S, is a slow seller - it's a lot of money for a bike that is too heavy to be truly sporty, and too spartan to be a good tourer.

I, for one, am not holding my breath for a revival of the ST. Ducati now has numerous touring bike options, all of which will perform wonderfully. I choose to buy in now with the broadened selection that Ducati is offering up for 2013, rather than wait for something that just won't appear.

Ducati IS listening to demand for sport touring options, obviously.

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stryder

Discussion Starter · #53 · Nov 13, 2012 (Edited)

At some point in time, this adventure bike crap has to go away so we can get back to sexy Italian designs for road going bikes instead of geeky Euro designs with off road pretensions. I think Ducati is just responding to the need for bikes with touring capacity within its line up but in a 1/2-measures way in order to save the time and money needed to come up with an actual, stand alone ST bike. So now we have 2 "touring motards", one an excellent, all conquering flagship that could scare the beheesus out of many sport bikers, the other a yet to be proven but not quite as loaded or expensive version, and of course the pièce de résistance, a tour pac for their boulevard cruiser/muscle bike, none of which actually hit the ST mark in the eyes of many ST aficionados. So yes, they do acknowledge they need bikes with cases and tourability, but they're doing it on the coat tails and even parts bins of other bikes, and certainly with little regard for sexy, fluid Italian design. Even though after they unceremoniously dropped their ST bike and while there have been numerous actual ST bikes introduced over the years by others, they keep churning out bikes that have little appeal to people who like traditional road going lines and functionality in favour of gimmicky, Euro trendy design adventure bikes, and even muscle bikes, none of which interest me in the least.

If and when I'm ready for a new/different bike, I think I'd rather look at any number of "GT" bikes from the ninties or even eighties than anything Ducati is currently offering. In fact I could get three or four different older bikes for the price of a newer one I don't want. But, if Ducati did eventually come out with a 20-25K sexy, not geeky, actually assigned to be, not arbitrarily ascribed to be ST bike, I would take a very close look to see if that'd be my "last" bike.

As it is now, it's looking more and more each day like I already have it.

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Thirdway

· #54 · Nov 13, 2012

1000sx is probably as close as it gets these days. I would definitely consider one as a good all around fast sports tourer. Not a Ducati of course but can certainly handle the job.

Sent from my iPhone using Motorcycle.com Free App

kismetcapitan

· #55 · Nov 13, 2012

I definitely agree with Stryder, and I also believe that it can be done through the parts bin just as the other "Strada" models were done.

What can't be taken from the bins though is a truly beautiful fairing design. Something that to the ST world that did what the 916, then the 1098 did.

A lot of Ducati styling has been hit or miss though. I like the last iteration of the Supersport, but I seem to be in a minority. The Multistrada 1100 is absolutely gorgeous - retro-futuristic styling, exposed air-cooled L-twin. And then you get to the front and wonder...what happened?? The Multistrada 1200, although I wish it weren't so tall as I don't ride off-road, is so derivative of the R1200GS...and no BMW is pretty.

The Monster will always be sexy, but it's a naked, which has a lot to do with its timeless styling.

I also don't like the "adventure" trend. Way too many BMW R1200GS bikes around with full safari kit, all shiny and never seen rain, let alone mud. It's like the SUV trend with cars. But you can't fault Ducati for making what will sell.

I saw a LOT of STs at the Indy MotoGP at Ducati Island. Clearly, the ST has a following.

$25K. Under 500lbs wet weight. 160bhp. Styling as sexy as a Desmosedici. I'd buy it in a second. But unfortunately, I don't think many others would who are shopping in that price bracket. And would the styling manage to be timeless? The 916 continues to impress, but in the way a 60s Vette turns heads.

I'm going to take a hard look at the Hyperstrada. The front of the bike is ugly as sin - they took the intriguing Hypermotard front and made it definitively hideous. But it's light, it has big side panniers with the option of a top case, it's got more power with a smaller engine than the air-cooled Hyper (which may translate into decent range with the still diminutive fuel tank), and all the electronic features (the lack of which kept me from buying a Hypermotard, which is a pretty hardcore hooligan bike) for a stupid-low price. That last bit had me pretty confused.

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Gearbox

· #56 · Nov 19, 2012

Thirdway said:
1000sx is probably as close as it gets these days. I would definitely consider one as a good all around fast sports tourer. Not a Ducati of course but can certainly handle the job.

Sent from my iPhone using Motorcycle.com Free App

Except can only have a topbox or panniers not both as the sub-frame wont take the load (Kawasakis' advice not mine) otherwise I agree although I have seen better looks but at least they have tried.

Thirdway

· #57 · Nov 19, 2012

Gearbox said:
Except can only have a topbox or panniers not both as the sub-frame wont take the load (Kawasakis' advice not mine) otherwise I agree although I have seen better looks but at least they have tried.

Oh FFS. Right where is that Goldwing sales brochure

so its a big fat tourer or a sports bike ? Tourers must now be 1200cc plus and weigh 600lbs or be adventure bikes.

kismetcapitan

· #58 · Nov 19, 2012

how does this sound?
- 1200cc twin
- dry clutch
- sportbike fairing and ST-type handlebars
- ABS
- 470lbs fully fueled
- side panniers, 32 liters each
- well under $20,000

Gearbox

· #59 · Nov 20, 2012

Thirdway said:
Oh FFS. Right where is that Goldwing sales brochure so its a big fat tourer or a sports bike ? Tourers must now be 1200cc plus and weigh 600lbs or be adventure bikes.

Closest I have seen (been tempted by) was the Yamaha FZ1 with additional lower fairing panels but seems it would need a bit of work on the handling front and not sure I could return to a straight four now been spoilt by the V-Twin.

Thirdway

· #60 · Nov 20, 2012

They reckon the Trophy is the new daddy.

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