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Discussion Starter #1
I want a Ducati Sport Touring bike and for reasons that I simply think are total BS.. they are unwilling to build one.. I actually spoke to the head of Ducati (USA) a couple of years ago and we went round and round on the subject never coming to an agreement.. He flat out said.. "there is no demand".... He said the ST3/ST4 series never caught on and they had no intentions of going down that path again.... IMHO.. a huge mistake. I pointed out that those bikes were great except for the fact that they were painfully underpowered and therefore no competition to their competition hence the low sales.. Duh. Put a 1198 engine in them and it would be a whole new ball game. Instead they wanted to build a cruiser..WTF??!! . which again..we disagreed on.. O, well.. According to him, I seem to be the only person in the USA asking for a sport tourer from Ducati.

Yea yea... a few here will point out the visually challenged Multi-Stroddle... and while many seem to like them.. and I'm sure they are competent... it's more of a GS-wannabe than a "true" sport tourer... They do nothing for me...

Before I go any further. I'll mention that I currently own a 2008 Ducati 1098 and a BMW K1200S.. The Duc is my play bike.. the BMW my "old man" bike. A few years ago I bought one of the last year model ST3's.. put 1000 miles on it and sold it.. Just could not live with the lack of power.. otherwise it was one of the best bikes I've ever owned... Had just assumed that Ducati would follow it's demise with a new version with the 1098 engine... Sweet!!!.. Obviously.. that never happened..

With that said... Rather than just come here to cry like a little girl.. I came to ask advice... This may sound far fetched, but I figure I could toss the idea out and see what sticks... It wouldn't be the first stupid (read: desperate) idea I've ever had...

I see ST3's and 4's for sale all over the place.. Relatively cheap and with low miles.. I have the cash to buy one... Does anyone here have any insight on grafting a 1098 engine onto an ST3 frame?? Doable? Possible? Pie in the sky optimism? or the stupidest idea anyone here has ever heard???

Serious comments would be appreciated... Gratuitous pics of naked babes, too..

BTW.. Am I really the only American who wants a "real" sport tourer from the Italians??
 

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Official Retired Person
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. . .
BTW.. Am I really the only American who wants a "real" sport tourer from the Italians??
No.


The 1st brand new motorcycle I ever bought was a 1995 BMW R1100RS. I won't list my reasons but you can probably guess. Since that time, BMW has steadily moved away from the sport tourer and now they offer nothing that interests me.

I bought the 2007 GT1000 because I missed out on the 1971 750 GT. When Ducati was building the ST series, I wasn't ready to get rid of the R1100RS. BUT, If something bad happened to the RS today, an ST would be tops on my list of replacement bikes even if it is a 'previously owned' model.

Clear enough?
 

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Your post confuses me. You seem to think Sport Touring mean having enough power to go real fast in a straight line. I thought for sure you probably lived in Texas until I looked. :)

Living where you do surely you know that high HP means nothing on the back roads where all the Sport Touring really happens. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #4
OK.. let me clarify... IMHO. a sport tourer is a full fairing bike with plenty of power for two up effortless riding, or one up hooligan riding, comfy (but not upright) ergos... similar to the FJR 1300, K1200S or GT, Kawasaki Concours, ST1300 Honda.. Enough power to put a massive smile across my face when I twist the throttle.. However.. unlike the aforementioned bikes.. it would be nice to have one (similar to the ST3/ST4) with chain drive and LESS WEIGHT... and knee dragging capabilities.


I don't care anything about high speeds in a straight line or otherwise.. as a matter of fact.. where are I live you have to look hard for a straight line..

I don't think you were confused at all...

Your post confuses me. You seem to think Sport Touring mean having enough power to go real fast in a straight line. I thought for sure you probably lived in Texas until I looked. :)

Living where you do surely you know that high HP means nothing on the back roads where all the Sport Touring really happens. :D
 

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I am always confused about the complaint that the ST series does not have enough horses. I have ridden (briefly) behind guys on ST's who have no problem leaving me in the dust to wait patiently for me to catch up at the next rest stop. You can only go so fast in the twisties and I have never seen an ST that couldn't take a curve at maximum speed.

As far as the ST series being discontinued for lack of sales, I am sure by now everyone has heard my rant about Ducati failing to advertise the bike and target it to its best potential market, the over 50 crowd.
 

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Master of Bumnitude
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IMO the ST had a lot going for it in any of its derivations. But it also suffered one flaw that, again, IMO, prevented it from selling. It simply wasn't sexy.

If I wanted an ugly but capable bike there are lots to choose from. Ducatis should be -- have to be! -- beautiful. And that the ST series was not.

-don
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Getting off subject here... Have you ridden ANY of the current Ducatis?? Many people are fine and happy with bikes with under 100hp.. I wish I were one of them.. In today's world where even starter motorcycles like the 600's have more ponies than that.. I'm shocked that you are confused.. Unless you are just used to riding bikes with the low numbers.. The ST3 was/is a snail when compared to anything I'd owned in the last 15 years..

Never saw your previous rants on the subject of marketing , but we agree that Ducati NEVER spent time or money pushing the ST3/4s.. However.. being in the biz I can tell you this... You are dead wrong about marketing a sport touring bike to over 50 crowd.. Yes.. there are a lot of older guys that ride them but there are many more 30-somethings that tour than you can imagine... Hell.. I did 90% more touring when I was in my 20's than I ever do these days...

Hopefully we can get back to my initial question...

BTW.. Don... I kinda agree with you.. the ST3 series wasn't sexy beautiful like other Ducs.. but it wasn't butt-ugly either.. Still.. another reason to revamp the series.. make it sexier.. and more powerful.. yea baby, yea..


I am always confused about the complaint that the ST series does not have enough horses. I have ridden (briefly) behind guys on ST's who have no problem leaving me in the dust to wait patiently for me to catch up at the next rest stop. You can only go so fast in the twisties and I have never seen an ST that couldn't take a curve at maximum speed.

As far as the ST series being discontinued for lack of sales, I am sure by now everyone has heard my rant about Ducati failing to advertise the bike and target it to its best potential market, the over 50 crowd.
 

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Getting off subject here... Have you ridden ANY of the current Ducatis?? Many people are fine and happy with bikes with under 100hp.. I wish I were one of them..
I've never felt that my 4s is slow, and certainly by your logic, my SC is slow as well (it isn't the fastest, but fast enough to get into trouble).

Having ridden the current lineup (but not the 1199, yet), I feel that what the TSE motor has coupled with the fact that the newer bikes are about 15% less weight class for class than 10 years ago makes them feel very fast.

Put a 4s on a diet and gain some power, rework the engine for more power, and you can get to a point where there are no sport tourers that will be close, by comparison (accounting for handling and power). Yes, it will be less power than a FJ or Connie in absolute BHP, but it will smoke those in the twisties and will always be better looking. A butt ugly ZX-14R will always have more power than 99% of bikes, doesn't mean that I would want to ride one.

As for putting the TSE motor in the ST, it's been a back-burner interest of mine, and depending on how much you wanted to spend, it could be done. It would take a fair amount of fabrication of parts (tank, frame, fairing mods, electrical, instrumentation) to make it work, but I'm sure you could ask NCR to build one for you for a small fortune.

I would investigate Spoon Valley racing and see if they can come up with a kit for mounting their supercharger on the ST. Google 1098J or Super Squalo.

.02
 

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Mr Leakered
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IMO the ST had a lot going for it in any of its derivations. But it also suffered one flaw that, again, IMO, prevented it from selling. It simply wasn't sexy.

If I wanted an ugly but capable bike there are lots to choose from. Ducatis should be -- have to be! -- beautiful. And that the ST series was not.

-don
FFS, compared to what? The last gen SS, the 999? Both of which I quite like, but I know there are dissenters. There are obviously folks who feel the 1x98 is not sexy enough. How about the other STs out there. . . . I'm waiting . . . :confused:

IMHO, the Sprint is the only other ST that comes close.

One simple change could have fixed all that. I once saw a first gen ST with DD's light glassed into the upper fairing. Yikes, it makes the Duc ST absolutely lust worthy. As is, it is sexy as STs get for me. There are few other ways of making a nice, rounded fairing wide enough for an ST.

If Paul ever offered such an option, I do believe his light would have been on my ST by now as I would have sold off my first born.

Pirate,

IMHO, there is plenty of power there. If you need to haul two up faster than that, then I think you might be doing it wrong?

The biggest problem is that any new Duc ST will follow the Multi1200 and 1199 into gizmo hell. There will be no more simple Duc 4v bikes. Therefore, I'm content with mine.

Have a good one.
 

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Hi Pirate.

I also really like this idea of true sport tourer. Ducati's modern version of the Aprilia RST Futura. Fully faired, with the superbike engine, some sleek hard cover bags... placed somewhere between the Panigale and the Multi. For me it would have to be much more toward the Panigale side.

If the Ducati guy said there was not enough market then it must at least be partly/mostly true. Maybe with the new merger they will have the money to throw together the 2014 1199 PaniGT. Ohh, I'll take two. :)
 

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Getting off subject here... Have you ridden ANY of the current Ducatis?? Many people are fine and happy with bikes with under 100hp.. I wish I were one of them.. In today's world where even starter motorcycles like the 600's have more ponies than that.. I'm shocked that you are confused.. Unless you are just used to riding bikes with the low numbers.. The ST3 was/is a snail when compared to anything I'd owned in the last 15 years..

Never saw your previous rants on the subject of marketing , but we agree that Ducati NEVER spent time or money pushing the ST3/4s.. However.. being in the biz I can tell you this... You are dead wrong about marketing a sport touring bike to over 50 crowd.. Yes.. there are a lot of older guys that ride them but there are many more 30-somethings that tour than you can imagine... Hell.. I did 90% more touring when I was in my 20's than I ever do these days...

Hopefully we can get back to my initial question...

BTW.. Don... I kinda agree with you.. the ST3 series wasn't sexy beautiful like other Ducs.. but it wasn't butt-ugly either.. Still.. another reason to revamp the series.. make it sexier.. and more powerful.. yea baby, yea..
Sounds to me like a Busa with bags would be the perfect bike for you. They go real fast in a straight line and still manage go around corners fast enough for average riders. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Interesting.. tottaly un-helpful and condescending in the same post.. Makes me really want to contribute to this forum..

Unless I misread my own post.. I don't remember asking YOU what kinda bike I need.. or what kind of rider YOU think I am..

So what part of my post has gotten your panties in a wad, fireball? and where do you get off telling me I need a busa?

Sounds to me like a Busa with bags would be the perfect bike for you. They go real fast in a straight line and still manage go around corners fast enough for average riders. :D
 

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Interesting.. tottaly un-helpful and condescending in the same post.. Makes me really want to contribute to this forum..

Unless I misread my own post.. I don't remember asking YOU what kinda bike I need.. or what kind of rider YOU think I am..

So what part of my post has gotten your panties in a wad, fireball? and where do you get off telling me I need a busa?
I forget, what was the point of this thread? :think:

Oh yea, Sport Touring bikes. Like what again but with a chain? :D
 

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I spoke with Aj at Santa Barbara Duc a few weeks ago,and he remembers Trevor doing this exact project. The 1198S, from a totaled bike, was built up, balanced and blueprinted. The install was performed by Trevor. Aj said the client is absolutely thrilled with the bike.
I'm with you Pirate, a 1098 in this bike would be awesome.
 

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In this instance, as with almost everything, I don't agree with Don.

The ST series, both first and second generations, were quite attractive enough to enlist a clientele. They were much more attractive than, say, the FJR, Honda ST, Honda FVR, Triumph Sprint, or BMW 1150/1200RT bikes. Those are their competition, and the ST series wins hands down in each instance. I ride with guys on all of these bikes, and they all (and I mean ALL) say mine is the best looking.

What Ducati didn't have was a combination of things:

1. The price for the ST was not comparable to other, especially Japanese, bikes in the late 1990s-early 2000s. The 2003 FJR MSRP was $11,499. The MSRP for my 2003 ST4s was $15,295. Is the Ducati worth $4000 more in 2003?

2. Service intervals. The FJR service intervals are stunning for anyone who has serviced Ducatis. The valves aren't checked until 26,600 miles. That means I do more than four valve services for one of the FJRs. Check it out: Yamaha FJR1300 Periodic Maintenance (USA/CA)

3. Reputation. Ducati will not catch on until it gains the reputation for reliability. This is, certainly, not the reality of its reliability (which is good) but the reputation. Ducati owners consistently complain about their bikes, some of which is merited, some of which is not. We tend to be a "sky is falling" lot, to be sure. LT Snyder described this, "If you spend much time surfing the internet on Ducati bulletin boards you wil develop a sense of paranoia that your Ducati si conspiring to break down on you at the most inopportune time." (Desmoquatro guide p. 11).

4. Parts availability. You get your Honda parts the next day. Ducati? Whenever the spirit moves them.

So - IF Ducati had made a ST Desmoquatro that a. didn't flake its openers and closers, b. didn't cost an arm and a leg, c. didn't have service intervals appropriate to aircraft rather than bikes, d. didn't have a poor reputation (merited or not), and didn't take an act of Congress (we know what that means) to get parts, the ST would have done very well. Not as well as the Multi-dual-sport bikes. Not as well as the Diavel cruiser-types. But how well does it have do for a company that produces 40K bikes a year?

Ron
 

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Here is a quote from member SE84 on the subject of a 1098 in a ST:
"Height: the TSE is taller and the intake runners are much longer than the 996. Airbox / runner modification would be necessary, as well as injector profiles and tuning, not to mention physical clearance to the frame. The 996 in the ST and Monster used 748R-style heads (smaller but with the same squish as the 996 heads) in order to clear the frame.

Swing-arm mount: not the same size, and would need to use the SSSA from the MS4r, or custom. Offset is probably different, too.

Frame rigidity: I'm not convinced that the frame in the ST is weak, or that the MS4r frame is any stronger, but the MS4r only had 130HP and 76ft-lb. To get this up to 150+ probably would be a good idea to gusset the frame in critical areas, or rebuild the engine mounting to match what the SBK frame has for strength. I've often thought that grafting the related ST extensions onto a donor frame would be a good route to pursue.

Electronics: You would have to go completely custom on this front. The dash in the CAN-bus ST will not match up to the ECU that you would need from the TSE donor. For the older analog bikes, it probably would be OK, but I'm sure that hacking the wiring harness would be necessary for the injection, among others. Going with a completely tunable ECU and custom display would seem to be the best approach, like what NCR does.

Basically, you would be custom building a strengthened MS4r with ST and aftermarket management bits grafted on.

Seems to me that a small turbo or supercharger (spoonvalleyracing.se) might be a better solution for the level of integration that would be necessary.
 

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Mr Leakered
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Jerry, I'd much prefer one from the Americans.

pg
DD
Yeah, but that effort (Motus) was a bit of a fizzle, or an IRA-emptier.

Sadly, Cleveland Cycle Works looks to be the best hope. The CCs are a bit small, the price is about right, and the designs are excellent. But then, it is only an American parent to sourced parts.

Have a good one.
 

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Sadly, Cleveland Cycle Works looks to be the best hope. Have a good one.
There may be a future Buell model that has hard bags.


Plenty of old S2 riders and fans clamoring for one, kinda like we want a new ST


If I had to buy new today, it would be a ninja 1000 with hard bags

It wouldn't be perfect but I think it and the FZ1000 are great bases for a true Sport-tour bike.
 
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