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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, I have a couple 03 999s motors that I want to get the absolute maximum power from. These are for racing only, not roadracing. So streetable torque, ability to idle and strong midrange etc are completely unimportant in this application. They literally need to make as much power as possible on the top end....period. I understand this is not the normal approach for most of our bikes, but there are a lot of big brains with huge experience here, so I am hoping to get some out of the box ideas. I have seen lots of mention with getting 150 rw hp from 999s with engine work. But what I am really curious about is the mentions I see of RSs that make upwards of 175hp, but always with the disclaimer that they eat parts when pushed to this level. But again not a concern for me. Anyone know what is so different inside the motors to get these levels of power? Cams and compression obviously, but anyone have data on them...or a good source for "Big" cams? I realize I can switch to 05 R cams for a little more lift and duration.....if I could find them. I have 03s so 100mm bores, and unfortunately I MUST stay with 100mm bores. So I believe I am limited to the stock S valve sizes. I am planning to run these on Alcohol so compression needs to come up near 15:1 . But it also needs 40-50% more fuel, so I doubt I can supply it with single injectors. Thinking about milling manifolds like MTS1200s which have injector in the manifold and the keeping the 999 shower injectors on top. Airboxes and runners are no problem, I will not use them in stock chassis. So I think huge airbox and try to get big runners to the nose to pressurize the airbox. I will likely use tuneboy to pull the timing out and Wayne thinks it should support dual injectors. Unless anyone has ideas on mechanical injection system for fuel? I am open to ideas or any experience you folks have that might be applicable. I know, crazy idea....but it's gonna happen, and I look forward to hearing so ideas. Thanks.
 
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Bigger intake valves. Larger intake runners. Bore the throttle bodies out. 13:1 comp pistons. Short 916 throttle. Machine the flywheel. Microtec ecu. It SHOULD make power all the way to 11k and nearly 12k IF DONE CORRECTLY. Then lower the gearing to 14/37. Lower gearing gives you access to more HP via extra RPM. And top speed isn’t lost as redline is higher. You can make it bigger but you won’t gain much.
 

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Ducati have won, what? 14 world superbike titles exploiting the V twins advantages of torque, drivability etc ....

The RS motors have more than just "big" cams and compression, they also run different ratio rockers, relocated valve guides for bigger valves etc. I don't think the RS stuff can be transplanted into a street R let alone an S. I could be wrong though...

If you're prepared to pay to generate that kind of power either find a proper RS engine ( they require very regular expensive rebuilds ) or stuff a 1098R engine in there, they make 180 as std, and are capable of plenty more, mine makes 193 at the wheel consistently. and it's still as streetable as a std 1098, with reasonable service life. Not sure what the rules you're racing to allow but just a suggestion.
 

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So I'm not as extreme as you might be, but we did some engine work last winter that yielded some 143hp at the wheel in a conservative dyno with the heavy OEM rear wheel installed(instead of my much lighter forged mag wheels).

My list:

  • Base engine 2004 749S
  • 749R cams
  • Mildly ported heads(but not gas flowed, so there might be few ponies still available)
  • Modified Pistal Pistons(100mm the ones that come with the big bore kit, but were milled down a bit to lower the compression which is now somewhere over 14 roughly. Would have been over 16 if nothing was done to the pistons)
  • 999S crank
  • Titanium conrods
  • Lighter cam pulley wheels
  • 300g flywheel
  • Carbon air runners + aftermarket filter
  • PC3
If we would have done more I think we would have gone with complete 749R heads because of the bigger channels/ports and titanium valves. Then bigger tb's. Carbon airbox. etc.
 

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I missed the bit on all out power. How much do you want to spend? How stupid do you want to go. Turbo it like the guys did at Bunbury Ducati. Why must it be limited to a 999 engine? Modified and made for your engine parts based on RS parts is the only way to go. And if you go that way I give the cases about 4 hours before they’re fucked. That includes dyno time.
 

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Did you all miss the bit where he said he wants to run it on alcohol?
I used to run a 1000cc 4 cyl motor on alcohol, need as much compression as you can get and typically increase the fuel supply by up to 100%,
That by itself will yield up to a 25% power increase as well as massively cooling the motor.
 

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Well we could have possible gone with the alcohol option if we didn't mill down the pistons. I'm no expert though, so I don't know if the 16+ compression would have been enough compression though.
 

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Yes it would be more than enough.
 

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I love the 999 and love making more power, but why? it would be cheaper and more cost effective to to buy a faster Ducati like an 1198 or 1199. even an 848 will hang with a 999 in the straights due to the weight disadvantages of the 999.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks everyone. To stay in its class, I forgot to mention, it must be naturally aspirated. So no turbo or super chargers. Also it must stay under 1000cc so no 1198 etc, I already have those anyway that make that much power....the trick is doing it with a 999 motor.

Xracer because I have to stay with the 100mm bore size, I don't believe I have spacing to run larger valves, and even if I could fit them, I think they are too close to the walls and I would do more damage to flow than keeping stock sized valves....I could be wrong. Also you mention spinning up to 12k rpm...will the long stroke motor spin that high? ( I have not calculated piston speed yet....I believe that to be my limiting factor for redline).

Davy, I have zero experience running Alcohol but am shooting for 15:1 compression and understand I need to pull a bunch of timing from it. Jyrki managed 16:1 with Pistals? Or is that because it was 100mm pistons with 749 heads? I have found 13.5 :1 pistons and if I mill enough off the heads/cylinders (have not even measured deck height yet) maybe I can get up near 15? I do not want to bring squish down too low, because I think it could hurt the very top end. The fuel supply worries me that I can not supply enough fuel with the single injector so I plan on dual injectors and a big ass fuel pump. Once I have it sorted on alcohol ultimately I plan on a 10-15% nitro blend. The fuel is where I think big power will come from. When you ran alcoholdid you run injection? What kind? I would love your thoughts on tackling the fueling, since you have been there done that.
Anybody know of where to source bigger lift/duration cams? I cann't find a set or R cams and just wondering if anyone knows of bigger stuff out there.
Thanks again to everyone....this will be fun, but hopefully doesn't blow my balls off it the motor lets go on Nitomethanol ?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Mr Alien, it's for a racing machine running on landspeed records so this is my motor choice to stay in class....and I have 2 999s motors. My 1200 motor is way stronger already. But getting stupid power and speed out of a 999 is a good challenge.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
12000rpm should put piston speed around 5000....so acceptable. If its still breathing up there.
 

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I ran a 4 cyl sprint car and initially used two SU carbies (ideal for methanol)
Later I ran 4 kehin carbies which were good as well but more complicated to jet on the day.
I needed flow velocity for pulling out of turns so the smaller bore multiple Kehins were ideal but for land speed straight line stuff you just need bore and fuel so SU's are ideal.
Advantage of the big ass SU's is that jetting adjustments are just a simple nut on the bottom that raise or lowers the jet down the needle. You could even rig up a way to adjust it on the run for max power.
We used to hand bore the jets typically about the size of a match head to deliver enough fuel (and with alcohol it's more a matter of just pouring it in rather than atomizing it, it's not that fussy)
The other issue we had was pump capacity. typically we would just pressurize the tank with a diaphragm pump so there was always capacity and we used 1/2' hose to connect to the manifold.

If valve size is an issue then just open the throats to absolute max bore and run 1mm seat max on the exhaust, cut the inlets at 30* and simply radius the back of the valves in a tulip shape so there is a tiny line contact as that's where most of the flow drag occurs.
You won't be doing much running so a line contact is no problem and the exhaust will be quite cool as your running alcohol.
I got two full seasons of speedway with the valves like that with no problem. and a few feature race wins :)
 

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Very good TiDuc, now we know what it’s used for we can give it a go. 2mm valves will fit, done more than a few. Think of your engine as if it’s a hand grenade. Lots of power, rather short life. ALL engines are limited to how much the engine can inhale and how long it will keep doing it. Valves, ports and cams is what is going to limit you. Haven’t seen a real rs on the dyno so I can’t say what they make. Guessing 170’ish maybe 180 on fuel at around 12-13k. As many parts from one as you can use or copy is a start. You don’t need a long powerband so fiddling with intake length and exhaust can get some more top end. Nitro is the way to go. BUT. For speed aerodynamics is where it’s. Your hand hanging in the air at 250kmh is worth about 10hp and it’s gets worse VERY quickly. Changing how you sit on a bike can make huge differences at speeds approaching 300klm. At this end it’s it becomes more cost effective to get your aeros right then to chase a few more ponies. Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Davy and X...it is all great info and really helps. I understand these motors running on nitro wide open fo 3-4 miles are going to have a very short life. Part of the game. I also think there will be a scattershield between my nuts and a nitro burring motor turning +12000 rpm ?. You are also 100% correct about the aerodynamics and body positioning etc.....if thats not right the amount of power you make is not going to help. I roughly remember a quote from Enzo Ferrari, 'aerodynamics is for people who cann' t build horsepower' not really true but funny.

It is not my first rodeo, I already have LSR records. This is just the beginning of 1 of our platforms which will run the 999 motor and the firstime not running gasoline based.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well upon more review and thought, here is how to make it a fast grenade. For the first season; New stand alone ECU, running fuel but twin turbo. Some head work. The moly chassis is now 10’ long at it tallest point Not much more than knee high. Aero should be very good. I think I can get a set of 749R cams into it. Work has just been slowing this project. Next year we will will try Nitromethane on the normally aspirated motor.
988075
 

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988076
 

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988077
 

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988078
 
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