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Discussion Starter #1
First of all, if this thread belongs somewhere else...please move it, moderators. I couldn't find a specific ECU-related forum...

With that out of the way, I am looking for some advice. I'm running an Arrow exhaust w/ the optional cat and a modified DB killer installed. Bike ran more or less OK with the exhaust installed on the stock mapping. I picked up a Tuneboy to make some improvements and also gain cruise control. It was a nice all-around improvement and I was quite content. Until now.

I finished up the 15k service a few days ago. Valve, timing belts, coolant, oil, spark plugs, etc. Also took the time to do a throttle sync with the TB software and replaced the stock air filter with an MWR. I found a huge pile of debris in the filter that was obviously carried in by some small rodent. More than likely under the previous owner's watch (I bought the bike last year with 5900 miles on it).

The bike now surges and bucks like crazy under cruise and pops on decel. Getting back on the throttle at the apex, the fueling feels too lean. There's a definite softness at first. If I'm working the engine it feels great. Pussyfooting around, it's unbearable (i.e. traffic).

I've tried the Arrow, Termi, and SC trim files. Where can I find more trim files? Does anyone have any suggestions to a better starting point? If I need to manually richen up the fueling, so be it....but I'd like to start with the best baseline I can.

And before you ask...no leaks present in the intake or exhaust. Used half a can of starting fluid around the heads/throttlebody/airbox and couldn't find a damn thing.
 

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Pops on decel , are not uncommon once you decat , but you have an Arrow cat, surging in higher gears while in cruise control is not common , you might want to remove and reinstall Tuneboy software , although to be honest I don't know if this will help . These bikes don't like being under about 3300 rpm , period . I have not heard of the throttle sync with Tuneboy software before , if the bike ran better before then that could be your problem . You may want a custom tune for your Tuneboy software to make it better .
 

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First of all, if this thread belongs somewhere else...please move it, moderators. I couldn't find a specific ECU-related forum...

With that out of the way, I am looking for some advice. I'm running an Arrow exhaust w/ the optional cat and a modified DB killer installed. Bike ran more or less OK with the exhaust installed on the stock mapping. I picked up a Tuneboy to make some improvements and also gain cruise control. It was a nice all-around improvement and I was quite content. Until now.

I finished up the 15k service a few days ago. Valve, timing belts, coolant, oil, spark plugs, etc. Also took the time to do a throttle sync with the TB software and replaced the stock air filter with an MWR. I found a huge pile of debris in the filter that was obviously carried in by some small rodent. More than likely under the previous owner's watch (I bought the bike last year with 5900 miles on it).

The bike now surges and bucks like crazy under cruise and pops on decel. Getting back on the throttle at the apex, the fueling feels too lean. There's a definite softness at first. If I'm working the engine it feels great. Pussyfooting around, it's unbearable (i.e. traffic).

I've tried the Arrow, Termi, and SC trim files. Where can I find more trim files? Does anyone have any suggestions to a better starting point? If I need to manually richen up the fueling, so be it....but I'd like to start with the best baseline I can.

And before you ask...no leaks present in the intake or exhaust. Used half a can of starting fluid around the heads/throttlebody/airbox and couldn't find a damn thing.
Sounds like your air fuel ratio is off and you need to tune it. What are your options to do that? If I recall correctly there are a couple of ways to tune with TB: Do some logging and either have it auto tune or send a log to tuneboy in hopes he will send you some new trim files.

P.S. a lean mixture could be dangerous, so do the tune asap. Also, do you know the condition of your injectors? Also, do you have a way to reset the ECU to see if maybe that helps before trying anything more complicated?

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can you set the tuneboy to be running but not modifying the map? You should be able to do that and have the same behavior as before the tuneboy was installed. I bought the map switch for rapidbike so I could switch between an adaptive map and a 'full stock' map (which is better on fuel). I have arrow/decat/rapidbike.

I have smooth throttle and smooth fueling but yea I do get popping on decel especially when cold - which makes sense.

fwiw - I just rode back to the house and noted my 'touring/commuting/not paying attention' gear selection. Riding through town at 40mph (steady speed no accel) I'm in 5th gear at 2750 or so - bike is perfectly smooth even in sport mode. In fact in sport the throttle is sensitive so that if I'm below 5th I start to get jerking from small throttle changes. If I want to accelerate (exiting town for instance) I shift down to 4th or 3rd. This is on a DVT bike (which definitely is better at low rpms). I've never felt a surging issue with the bike except when it's cold and the cold start cycle is effed up (like it is right now)... that always goes away in less than a mile.
 

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Sounds like you are running lean. You mention changing the air filter to MWR. The MWR website specifically notes:

Caution: Remapping the ECU or the Fuel Control Module is necessary.

I'd try an OEM filter before I mess with anything else, pain in the ass to drain and remove the tank again but you're probably pretty good at it by now ;-). If the old filter was old and very clogged and the bike ran well, stands to reason that an aftermarket freer-flowing (and clean!) filter might lean it out too much... just a thought.

Just my 2 cents, but the paper OEM filters do the best job as far as filtering out particulates. This has been proven many times over in various lab tests... they just filter out more shit. I'd ask yourself if you really need the additional (small amount of) power you think you're getting from a less restrictive air filter vs. the wear and tear on your motor from the additional particulates you are sucking in through the filter.
 

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I don't see where you said what year your MTS is, it might help. A few random thoughts:

If the most recent thing you changed was doing the desmo service, you didn't touch Tuneboy, and the bike was running fine before you did the desmo service, my first inclination would be that Tuneboy is not the problem.

Some years of MTS have a lose fitting air filter that allowed significant blow-by. If some vermin has been munching on the OE filter, that could have made the issue worse. Instead of the less restrictive airbox you were expecting with the race filter, it might be the opposite. I would test this by removing the MWR filter and taking a short ride on clean roads. That's what I would do if it were my bike, up to you if the risk of running filter-less for a short time is acceptable or not.

Try taking the DB-killer out. I had a set of Termis on a Tuneboy Diavel that were horrible in every regard, until I took the DB-killers out and let the pipes breathe. Those things can create a ton of backpressure, sometimes more than the stock exhaust system had.

Re-gap your spark plugs.

Drain fuel and refill with known quality 91+ octane gasoline.

Just my .02c, I wouldn't consider Tuneboy a culprit until I'd done all of those things.
 

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Just my 2 cents, but the paper OEM filters do the best job as far as filtering out particulates. This has been proven many times over in various lab tests... they just filter out more shit.
Yup... if you're running a track bike then the high performance filters make sense... if you're riding on the street or worse yet dirt roads and want longevity - IMO they should be avoided.
 

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Those things can create a ton of backpressure, sometimes more than the stock exhaust system had.
interesting... now you have me curious (I've not tried running without the db-killer).
 

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If I had both of the DB-killers installed in that Diavel, the exhaust system had so much back-pressure on decel it would make this horrible squeaking noise, like someone just belly-flopped onto a set of bagpipes. Removing one of them cured it. Probably unique to that exhaust, since even the factory pipes on those bikes are huge.
 

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Agree lots of backpressure with the dbkillers. On the termi dB killers you may notice a small bar in the tube that is there to allow you to pull the dB killer out when you remove it from the muffler. It’s the bar that causes the squeak, if you drill the bar out squeak will be gone :)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks to everyone for the responses. I was at the track over the weekend and have been back getting caught up around work and home. To address your comments...

Pops on decel , are not uncommon once you decat , but you have an Arrow cat, surging in higher gears while in cruise control is not common , you might want to remove and reinstall Tuneboy software , although to be honest I don't know if this will help . These bikes don't like being under about 3300 rpm , period . I have not heard of the throttle sync with Tuneboy software before , if the bike ran better before then that could be your problem . You may want a custom tune for your Tuneboy software to make it better .
The popping on decel is a function of throttle position; it sometimes pops when the throttle is closed, but also when the throttle position is cracked slightly. The surging happens at low throttle opens, probably less than 10%, but I'd need to log to confirm that. It doesn't surge while cruising w/ cruise control on as the engine load requires a higher throttle opening at those highway speeds.

The throttle sync is easy peasy. It reads from the MAP sensors already installed on the bike and you just make the adjustments until both cylinders read the same.

Sounds like your air fuel ratio is off and you need to tune it. What are your options to do that? If I recall correctly there are a couple of ways to tune with TB: Do some logging and either have it auto tune or send a log to tuneboy in hopes he will send you some new trim files.

P.S. a lean mixture could be dangerous, so do the tune asap. Also, do you know the condition of your injectors? Also, do you have a way to reset the ECU to see if maybe that helps before trying anything more complicated?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
I can fully tune the files as needed. I don't have the wideband auto tuning setup quite yet, but this might hasten that addition.

Injectors are stock and have never been removed. It's possible there could be crap in the fuel lines, but the problem really only manifests itself in low throttle openings. In carburetor speak, I'd say it feels like a blocked pilot jet. The main jet feels good.

can you set the tuneboy to be running but not modifying the map? You should be able to do that and have the same behavior as before the tuneboy was installed. I bought the map switch for rapidbike so I could switch between an adaptive map and a 'full stock' map (which is better on fuel). I have arrow/decat/rapidbike.

I have smooth throttle and smooth fueling but yea I do get popping on decel especially when cold - which makes sense.

fwiw - I just rode back to the house and noted my 'touring/commuting/not paying attention' gear selection. Riding through town at 40mph (steady speed no accel) I'm in 5th gear at 2750 or so - bike is perfectly smooth even in sport mode. In fact in sport the throttle is sensitive so that if I'm below 5th I start to get jerking from small throttle changes. If I want to accelerate (exiting town for instance) I shift down to 4th or 3rd. This is on a DVT bike (which definitely is better at low rpms). I've never felt a surging issue with the bike except when it's cold and the cold start cycle is effed up (like it is right now)... that always goes away in less than a mile.
I don't have the auto tuning at the moment, so the map is static (Wayne turns off the O2 sensors, so it's working in open loop mode.

I know the 2010-2012 models are rougher down low due to the large piston area. That's the whole point of adding the second spark plug on the 2013 models. And the DVT was another attempt at improvement in that area, as well. So I know this thing is not going to be perfect down low. I'm cool with that. The biggest issue I have is the transitions that happen when I close and re-open the throttle. The bike ran wonderful at the track last weekend when I rode it like I stole it...but trail braking is when the issue occurs...on-off-on again kind of thing.

Sounds like you are running lean. You mention changing the air filter to MWR. The MWR website specifically notes:

Caution: Remapping the ECU or the Fuel Control Module is necessary.

I'd try an OEM filter before I mess with anything else, pain in the ass to drain and remove the tank again but you're probably pretty good at it by now ;-). If the old filter was old and very clogged and the bike ran well, stands to reason that an aftermarket freer-flowing (and clean!) filter might lean it out too much... just a thought.

Just my 2 cents, but the paper OEM filters do the best job as far as filtering out particulates. This has been proven many times over in various lab tests... they just filter out more shit. I'd ask yourself if you really need the additional (small amount of) power you think you're getting from a less restrictive air filter vs. the wear and tear on your motor from the additional particulates you are sucking in through the filter.
Yes. I was hoping someone here had some experience with the combo (or something close) and could recommend a decent starting point (i.e. a trim file).

I'd normally agree with your assessment of paper filters. In fact, I almost NEVER swap air filters. But given all the bad press about the ill-fitting MTS1200 air filter, I decided to fix it since I want to keep the bike for a while. Based on my research, the MWR is the only filter of the proper length to close up the gap present on the factory paper air filter. And yes, my filter was too small...nice layer of dust all over the airbox and throttles.

But my thought is like yours...too much air, too lean.

I don't see where you said what year your MTS is, it might help. A few random thoughts:

If the most recent thing you changed was doing the desmo service, you didn't touch Tuneboy, and the bike was running fine before you did the desmo service, my first inclination would be that Tuneboy is not the problem.

Some years of MTS have a lose fitting air filter that allowed significant blow-by. If some vermin has been munching on the OE filter, that could have made the issue worse. Instead of the less restrictive airbox you were expecting with the race filter, it might be the opposite. I would test this by removing the MWR filter and taking a short ride on clean roads. That's what I would do if it were my bike, up to you if the risk of running filter-less for a short time is acceptable or not.

Try taking the DB-killer out. I had a set of Termis on a Tuneboy Diavel that were horrible in every regard, until I took the DB-killers out and let the pipes breathe. Those things can create a ton of backpressure, sometimes more than the stock exhaust system had.

Re-gap your spark plugs.

Drain fuel and refill with known quality 91+ octane gasoline.

Just my .02c, I wouldn't consider Tuneboy a culprit until I'd done all of those things.
I don't think the Tuneboy is the issue so much as the mapping. My thread title was misleading.

The fuel was the same in the tank as before the service. So a known 'good'. Plugs were new and gaps were good.

I'd take the DB killer out...but dear GOD. Too loud for me. I did cut the tip off the DB killer to get a little more flow and sound. Sounds great!

Yup... if you're running a track bike then the high performance filters make sense... if you're riding on the street or worse yet dirt roads and want longevity - IMO they should be avoided.
Agreed. But I didn't want to suck in more dirt with the stock air filter.
 

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I installed Tuneboy on my 2012 Multi several years ago. It ran much smoother but was very rich. I tried about every trim file Tuneboy offered but was never really happy. I considered trying the DIY approach with the wide band sensor, etc. as I prefer to do things myself. However, I came to my senses and found a dedicated tuner in Seattle and he was able to perfectly dial in the fueling. No pops, backfiring, black soot, etc. I fuels nicely as low as 1,500 rpm. Mileage increased a few mpg as well. I wish I did it sooner rather than later.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
How much is it to add? Seems like that would be your ticket.

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Around $200.

I installed Tuneboy on my 2012 Multi several years ago. It ran much smoother but was very rich. I tried about every trim file Tuneboy offered but was never really happy. I considered trying the DIY approach with the wide band sensor, etc. as I prefer to do things myself. However, I came to my senses and found a dedicated tuner in Seattle and he was able to perfectly dial in the fueling. No pops, backfiring, black soot, etc. I fuels nicely as low as 1,500 rpm. Mileage increased a few mpg as well. I wish I did it sooner rather than later.
2WDW?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I had some time a couple nights ago and was able to poke around on the bike. Re-checked the throttle body sync and found everything to be good. I even played with the bleed screws to experiment if their positions made a noticeable difference (spoiler alert - they didn't).

I reflashed the bike with new trim files. Ditched the Arrow, Termi, and SC maps. Used the 'Zero Trim' (stock), STD, and Mivv. I chose these files based on a cursory review of the trim values in the offending regions. They were all noticeably richer.

Surprise, surprise, the added fuel helps...a LOT! The stock map eliminated at least half of the surging, bucking, and popping. The STD map is richened up quite a bit in many areas and feels better yet. Not awesome, mind you...but certainly livable.

So yeah...fueling is the issue. I'm making progress. But still needs more love. To be continued...
 

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I had some time a couple nights ago and was able to poke around on the bike. Re-checked the throttle body sync and found everything to be good. I even played with the bleed screws to experiment if their positions made a noticeable difference (spoiler alert - they didn't).

I reflashed the bike with new trim files. Ditched the Arrow, Termi, and SC maps. Used the 'Zero Trim' (stock), STD, and Mivv. I chose these files based on a cursory review of the trim values in the offending regions. They were all noticeably richer.

Surprise, surprise, the added fuel helps...a LOT! The stock map eliminated at least half of the surging, bucking, and popping. The STD map is richened up quite a bit in many areas and feels better yet. Not awesome, mind you...but certainly livable.

So yeah...fueling is the issue. I'm making progress. But still needs more love. To be continued...
time for a dyno tune?
 
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