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:laugh:

It's all just part of the natural cycles of this rock we live on.

It's also a great way to make a metric shot ton of money. Humans can't stop it from happening anymore that humans can stop a volcano from erupting.

Humans be funny critters. I like to imagine what space aliens think of us .... I bet "Them crazy ass humans on planet Earth" is their favorite TV comedy!

:grin2:
 

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I agree we can’t stop it, but we need to do everything we can to reduce the impact. If we do nothing it will be worse. If we don’t plan ahead for what we’re going to do, especially in the coastal areas, we will make the disaster much much worse. We’ve already waited way too long. There are way too many people in denial. I can see nothing will be done until it’s far too late. I fear for my grandchildren and the future of our planet.
 

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I agree we can’t stop it, but we need to do everything we can to reduce the impact. If we do nothing it will be worse. If we don’t plan ahead for what we’re going to do, especially in the coastal areas, we will make the disaster much much worse. We’ve already waited way too long. There are way too many people in denial. I can see nothing will be done until it’s far too late. I fear for my grandchildren and the future of our planet.
We'll adapt. I totally agree that we should be taking better care of this spacecraft we live on, global warming or not. It's the only home we have and we should not be taking it for granted.

My thing is that there is an entire industry centered on making obscene amounts of money off of fear mongering. Not to mention the emotional manipulation being done by those that seek power. Every old story written to warn us of dystopian futures is centered on some disaster that was taken advantage of to shift power to a very small group, while taking power away from the masses. Those "disasters" were mostly manufactured and propagated by the same small group seeking power, and maintaining power. Our young ones are no longer exposed to those stories, so they're not wary of the ploy. Ask most college or high school kids if they've ever read or seen the movies "Brave New World" ... "1984" ... "Fahrenheit 451" ... "Animal Farm" ... "Snowpiercer" ... "Chicken Little" ... or any of the other warning stories. Nope.

In the 1970s, there was the huge push for controlling (what was then called) "pollution". We were told that we were all going to be living underground to hide from it, and the human race would be reduced to barely a few million people by 1990. We adapted, and here we are.

The biggest problem with global warming issues is that no matter what the USA does, China and India are the world's worst producers of greenhouse gasses, as well as oceanic pollution .... by over 80%. This idea that the USA will lead the world to a better Earth is naive. China and India dump over 800 million tons of plastic crap into the Earth's oceans each year. Not to mention the amounts of CO2 that China, India, Canada, and other countries pump into the atmosphere each year ... unregulated, and unchecked. They're not going to change their behavior and willingness to grow their economies no matter how much money and political power is shifted here in the USA.

So this notion that the USA has to spend TRILLIONS "with a T" to "save the world" is nothing but a push to shift power and wealth from the people to a very small group. Should the USA make efforts to create cleaner power and produce less shit? Sure ... keeping your own house clean is a good idea. But this notion that "the end of the world will be here in twelve years if we don't shift power and wealth to the elite" is just yet another attempt to do just that ... shift power and wealth.

Rather than spending megaheaps of money to "prevent it" ... our efforts should be focused on preparing for it. Global Warming is like solar flares ... there isn't shit we can do to stop it (and there never was ... it's as natural as an ice age) ... but there are measures we can take to adapt to it as things begin to change. That is where our focus should be. The USA needs to rebuild it's infrastructure anyhow, we're long overdue for a "total rebuild" (like a worn out engine) .. we may as well focus those efforts on preparing for Earth's changing ... ever changing ... environment.

.
 

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There are on average 70 volcanic events every year that emit hydrocarbons and CO2 way way in excess of any IC engine. Mt St Helen alone in the 80's emitted more GH gas than the cumulative effect of all IC engines on the planet before and those forecast to exist in the future at the time.

Who's making the catalytic converter for these? Anybody?

Plus, it's not "global warming". That's much too specific. It's "climate change". Get it right.
 

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Agreed!!. If it was so bad, and water level rising, Why'd Obama buy a house on the beach? Why invest Billions upon Billions to build on the coast it its all gone in 12 years!!
 

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I agree we can’t stop it, but we need to do everything we can to reduce the impact. If we do nothing it will be worse. If we don’t plan ahead for what we’re going to do, especially in the coastal areas, we will make the disaster much much worse. We’ve already waited way too long. There are way too many people in denial. I can see nothing will be done until it’s far too late. I fear for my grandchildren and the future of our planet.

No, not 'everything we can'. Because a lot of the nitwits with a say in what 'everything' might entail will spend us into oblivion doing many many things that won't do a blessed thing. Meanwhile, the main polluting countries will more than undo any infinitesimally small gains we theoretically made. Lots of already rich folk will get richer still off the shell game though.

How about we start writing tickets for littering ($500 here in Ohio)? Cigarette butt? $500. McFecal burger wrapper? $500. Trash truck not tarped? $500. Then lots more trash ought to make it to the landfills instead of the streams, rivers, lakes, and oceans, at least. That's a social engineering trick I can get behind that could actually work and would get something truly positive done. That said, it's been law here for longer than I can remember and still don't know a single person (who knows a person who knows a person) that's ever been given one.
 

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Anyone who thinks that man can't change the environment on earth is wrong. Imagine how many trees have been cut down (and not replaced) alone in the last 10,000 years.

If fishing wasn't regulated we could literally fish the oceans to the point of being empty.

Anyone wanna revisit southern Cali in the 70's and enjoy some smog.

Look at the temp's for the last decade. Records are being set regularly for heat. The scientific community is in agreement that this is happening.
 

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Al Gore has the largest house in Tenessee, travels by private jet on a daily basis and has the single largest carbon footprint of any human being on earth.

I'm gonna take his word for it. I'm taking my dryer to the dump.....
 

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Anyone who thinks that man can't change the environment on earth is wrong. Imagine how many trees have been cut down (and not replaced) alone in the last 10,000 years.

If fishing wasn't regulated we could literally fish the oceans to the point of being empty.

Anyone wanna revisit southern Cali in the 70's and enjoy some smog.

Look at the temp's for the last decade. Records are being set regularly for heat. The scientific community is in agreement that this is happening.
OK, we'd better do something about the volcanos also.
 

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The scientific community is in agreement that this is happening.

Like when we were headed toward our peril with another ice age back in the 70's? Yes, the 'settled science' and the 'consensus' and all that.

We (the first world countries) already have cleaned up our acts many-fold and continue to. The problem is that most of Asia is made up of super-polluters. Any gain we make, they undo many times over. So, the nitwits I mentioned earlier would have us upend (to put it modestly) our economies and ways of life to solve an over-stated 'problem' while either looking the other way from Asia's misdeeds and/or sending them hundreds of billions to 'help them out' (while they do nothing).

My late father was a member of the Sierra Club from before I was born until the late 70's. I'm named about John Muir. We hiked, camped, lived on a forested property that we 'left to nature'. I grew up loving and respecting nature (and still do) because of him and beliefs of The Club. But, he saw changes in the Club over the years he didn't like. Slowly but, surely, it went from respecting nature and natural places, maintaining/planting flora, promoting the outdoor life, etc. to them becoming the envirowhackos they are today.

Their view now is essential that there is no acceptable use of 'natural places' by humans. They want the govt to take over all the land with our tax money but, don't want those same taxpayers to have access to it. They'd prefer to see us go back to the 1500's when heat only came from coal and trees. But, oh yeah, coal is bad and, DON'T CUT ANY TREES! And, don't even mention nuclear.

The most vocal doomsdayers are precisely the people in position to make the most money off of any of the nonsensical proposals to 'deal with climate change' (carbon credits is a good one). They are also the biggest hypocrites as to how they live their lives. The stereotypes against Al Gore and Leonard Dicrapeo aren't stereotypes when they're true. Multiple enormous houses (DEFORESTATION!), private jets, limos and other large gas guzzling vehicles (NO MORE OIL!). All the summits they attend to tell the plebeians how to live when they could simply stay at their homes and do a live stream around the planet to anyone with a smart phone, tablet, or PC. But, how to rub elbows with your other self-annointed 'saviors' over caviar (likely from an endangered fish) and wine and champagne (from land they would otherwise say should be planted with trees)?
 

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Please be mindful of the "no politics" stance we have on the site. There is a very good reason for it. Once this topic crosses the line, and it's pretty close, it will disappear. Feel free to talk about climate change, but keep politics and political figures out of it. Stick to science and policy and all will be well.

Thanks.
 

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All this drivel just because of a bit of frost in the tropics >:)
 

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These days the trouble I'm having with these discussions is that we all are making this about CO2, CO2 and nothing else, sure this is very convenient, we get to point the finger at China, India, developing nations, we get to feel good about ourselves, forgetting how we polluted on our way to getting developed.

Once we start talking about waste, common scrap, garbage, a very different picture emerges, suddenly the cleanest nations now becomes the most wasteful nations, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland, the USA, the biggest exporter of waste in the world, by a big margin. Just think about that for a moment, one country exporting its waste (exporting its own garbage for crying out loud) to another country and then blaming that country for its pollution.

I'm not even gonna start on consumption....

I dunno, it just seems that we all are forgetting that we all share the same world.
 

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These days the trouble I'm having with these discussions is that we all are making this about CO2, CO2 and nothing else, sure this is very convenient, we get to point the finger at China, India, developing nations, we get to feel good about ourselves, forgetting how we polluted on our way to getting developed.
But punishing ourselves for past sins helps no one. For example, me punishing you for something your father did (so to speak) is not productive, nor moral.

Once we start talking about waste, common scrap, garbage, a very different picture emerges, suddenly the cleanest nations now becomes the most wasteful nations, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland, the USA, the biggest exporter of waste in the world, by a big margin. Just think about that for a moment, one country exporting its waste (exporting its own garbage for crying out loud) to another country and then blaming that country for its pollution.
China buys our recycleables, as does India, as raw material for making raw plastics that are used to make plastic goods ... which we buy back as products. What countries such as they are dumping into the oceans are single use plastic products.

In any case, that has little to do with Global Warming. What nations like China are putting into our atmosphere comes from cement production, steel mills, mineral mines, and electric power production. That cannot be put on the shoulders of the USA. Even if the USA were to produce the mythical "net zero carbon" China, India (et al) would still be producing CO2. I don't want to be held accountable for their dog when it shits in someone else's yard.

I'm not even gonna start on consumption.
The USA is a nation of 330 million people, and growing every year. Those people need to be fed, require power, and clothes on their backs. Their children need good schools, and roads to transport those children to those good schools. And let's remember the immigrants that flock to the USA every minute of every day that we're supposed to be compassionate towards, welcome with open arms, feed, provide medical care for, and provide jobs for so they too can participate in the American Dream. All of that I just listed translates into "consumption".

In the 1970s people were screaming about "over population". There's only one solution I know of to curb that ..... disaster. War, disease, starvation. Those types of disasters. I, for one, wouldn't wish any of that on anyone.

I dunno, it just seems that we all are forgetting that we all share the same world.
I think it is more of a problem that far too many of those seeking power and wealth to lord over the proletariat seem to think we all live on "Planet USA" .... the USA isn't a planet ... the USA isn't responsible for all of the world's ills. It is as you said, we all live on the same rock. But power seekers in the USA act as though the USA is it's own planet ... that if the USA spends mega-money on what the USA produces/consumes everything will become golden and a new paradise will emerge. It is they that forget we all live on a spacial body that all humans share. Until alllllll nations begin acting even a little bit as the USA does in regards to cleaner energy, and less waste, the USA can tax itself into nationwide poverty with a military so weak it could be toppled by one of the giant wasters and it won't help shit.

I don't think anyone (as in citizens) in the USA wants filthy oceans, unbreathable air, or any of the changes that Global Warming will (and already has) created. No one. But this notion of shifting wealth and power to a very small contingent of liars and immoral elitists for the sake of "saving the Earth" isn't something I buy into.

Preserve the Earth? Of course! But you're not going to frighten me into poverty and being part of a proletariat that the powerful ride the shoulders of is off the menu. And I'm not giving up my meat, dammit!

:grin2:
 

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It's impossible to keep politics out of a debate on climate change, purely because the very notion of climate change and how humans have effected it or can change it is politically driven.

It is preposterous to believe that we (people) can effect the temperature of our planet by our behaviour, sure, we can over fish certain areas of the ocean, we can pollute the skies and create smog that's harmful to us but the geological time line shows events like ice ages and what not, does the government think they can avert one of those? it's a hiccup in the history of the planet, the change in temperature will rise and fall, it has done for eons before we arrived and it will do long after we're gone.

The Volcano example is perfect, relevant and valid, so were the plant eating dinosaurs farting methane when they inhabited the place. Just because the current apex predator has the ability to organise, think and be so smug to believe we are capable of challenging mother earth the politicians have seen the opportunity to tax the lemmings. The scientific community that supports climate change are of course funded by the same political machine that need fuel for the propaganda that drives their taxation policy.....

The industrial revolution was all well and good when it was 1st world countries making all the money and with it pollution, now 2nd and 3rd world countries like India are finding their feet their industrial revolution undercutting unionised 1st world country labour is filthy and killing our planet and must be stopped... Puhleeeze! Hypocrites, the lot of em.
 

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It's impossible to keep politics out of a debate on climate change, purely because the very notion of climate change and how humans have effected it or can change it is politically driven.

It is preposterous to believe that we (people) can effect the temperature of our planet by our behaviour, sure, we can over fish certain areas of the ocean, we can pollute the skies and create smog that's harmful to us but the geological time line shows events like ice ages and what not, does the government think they can avert one of those? it's a hiccup in the history of the planet, the change in temperature will rise and fall, it has done for eons before we arrived and it will do long after we're gone.

The Volcano example is perfect, relevant and valid, so were the plant eating dinosaurs farting methane when they inhabited the place. Just because the current apex predator has the ability to organise, think and be so smug to believe we are capable of challenging mother earth the politicians have seen the opportunity to tax the lemmings. The scientific community that supports climate change are of course funded by the same political machine that need fuel for the propaganda that drives their taxation policy.....

The industrial revolution was all well and good when it was 1st world countries making all the money and with it pollution, now 2nd and 3rd world countries like India are finding their feet their industrial revolution undercutting unionised 1st world country labour is filthy and killing our planet and must be stopped... Puhleeeze! Hypocrites, the lot of em.
Absolutely. We have to be pretty arrogant to suggest that humans altered the climate of an entire planet. And yes, the volcano thing is a fact that's predominately ignored but, yes, the ice cap et al data is scary. OK, having said that, there is no excuse for us polluting beyond a reasonably economic and controllable level. Recycle your shit (glass, oil, plastic, steel etc), plant trees and put LED's in your house. Yes, there's a lot we can do and are doing every day. I know I am and have been all my life - but I love my IC engines.
 
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