Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum banner
  • Hey Everyone! Enter your bike HERE to be a part of this months Bike of the Month Challenge!
1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Everyone,
I was throwing a bone to a Ducati shop after I purchased a used bike from them, thinking they would do a good job on my 36,000 mile service.

After the service, I had the bike delivered to my house, started it and seemed fine. But the bike never seemed to perform like it did, prior to me taking it to them for the service. It was lacking at top end hesitating, but pulled strong in the lower gears. After many months of not loving my ST, I went ahead and checked the idle, TPS with my Centurion TechnoResearch Tool. The idle was 1350 rpm, TPS was 4.7 and that seemed out of spec. It should be 3.2 and around 1200 rpm. I started to loosing interest in the bike and put her on the kickstand, didn't not ride for over a year.

Now I want to get the bike back on the road. I am going to change the oil, set the TPS, sync the throttle bodies. I also plan on reflashing the ECU with the Ducati performance program, but found out that Moto Wheels no longer offer that service. I want to try to get the bike back to a good running bike but don't want to take it to any dealer. Can I buy the Rexxer or Tune Boy and reflash my ECU on my own? I do have both the stock ECU, which came with the bike(has FBF pipes) and one with Ducati Performance ECU from Ducati of Huston many years ago. Will this tool also be able to reflash the ECU for my Monster, in addition to the ST 3, that will do all the same thing as the TechnoReserach tool?
Thx,
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
217 Posts
Mark, is the immobilizer disabled on the DP ECU from Houston Performance? If it's a DP reflash from Houston, I believe they are immob disabled. Maybe worth a try to swap and see if it works.

Can't help you regarding DIY reflashing, but there is more info on reflashing a 5AM in the Tech section.

Good luck,
Scott L.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,476 Posts
Not enough info here to answer your question, but it does bring up some for you.

1. why reflash?

2. what has been done to the bike?
Exhaust
Airbox lid
engine mods.

3. O2 sensor bike?
What year?

I would NOT change the ecu map unless there is a need, you found a problem (TPS) so fix that before creating another. If the bike has slip ons but a closed (stock ) airbox then the ecu can be trimmed as is with no map change. If you have O2 sensors then changing to a DP map and eliminating the O2 sensors will help low rpm driveability. The bike should run much better when the TPS is set but know that the injection is a system of interdependent adjustments. Sync effects TPS which also effects idle and all effect the air/fuel ratio, if you set tps and then sync you might find the tps has now changed. Same for adjusting the idle stop. Not so for adjusting the air bypass which only effects sync and air /fuel.

You have a great tool to re-set tps and if you can sync it then get as far as you can. Without a air/fuel meter you are flying blind as far as how the fueling is but you should be able to get close. Having the ecu re-mapped may just add another layer of unknowns.
 

·
Retired Pipe Polisher C2H6O+
Joined
·
19,081 Posts
Hey Everyone,
I was throwing a bone to a Ducati shop after I purchased a used bike from them, thinking they would do a good job on my 36,000 mile service.

After the service, I had the bike delivered to my house, started it and seemed fine. But the bike never seemed to perform like it did, prior to me taking it to them for the service. It was lacking at top end hesitating, but pulled strong in the lower gears. After many months of not loving my ST, I went ahead and checked the idle, TPS with my Centurion TechnoResearch Tool. The idle was 1350 rpm, TPS was 4.7 and that seemed out of spec. It should be 3.2 and around 1200 rpm. I started to loosing interest in the bike and put her on the kickstand, didn't not ride for over a year.

Now I want to get the bike back on the road. I am going to change the oil, set the TPS, sync the throttle bodies. I also plan on reflashing the ECU with the Ducati performance program, but found out that Moto Wheels no longer offer that service. I want to try to get the bike back to a good running bike but don't want to take it to any dealer. Can I buy the Rexxer or Tune Boy and reflash my ECU on my own? I do have both the stock ECU, which came with the bike(has FBF pipes) and one with Ducati Performance ECU from Ducati of Huston many years ago. Will this tool also be able to reflash the ECU for my Monster, in addition to the ST 3, that will do all the same thing as the TechnoReserach tool?
Thx,
Mark
I use Tuneecu for making modifications and reflashing this model ECU. I highly recommend using the DP ECU you have. If it's a virgin ecu the immobilizer will be eliminated. If you had your existing factory ecu reflashed it can be either way, eliminated or left alone. I used the DP ecu on my bike with only the open pipes with no db inserts. I chose to use the stock airbox lid and filter as I didn't like the noise and it worked great like that for over 30k miles.

If your Monster is of the same generation as the ST3, yes the ECU's are the same and can be flashed with the appropriate map for which bike it is used in. But you can not take the ECU with the ST3 map and run it unchanged. It would need to be flashed with a Monster map.


Whenever you change or remap an ECU it must have the TPS reset after installing in the bike. And with the O2 sensors eliminated with the DP map you will also probably need to set the fuel trim to get the smoothest low speed fueling. I've always done this by seat of the pants trial and error. Some people choose to use a tail pipe sensor and tune for a certain CO level. The fuel trim can not be adjusted on a bike running the O2 sensors as this is the fueling area controlled by the O2 sensors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,662 Posts
2004 st3 has a non linear tps, so don’t use the electronic reset. Duckman is talking linear tps bikes, which both of his are. Non linear tps adjustment is manual and one time pretty much.

There are 2 versions of the 5am ecu - 103 and 610 hardware. Putting the wrong version file into an ecu will kill it.
 

·
Retired Pipe Polisher C2H6O+
Joined
·
19,081 Posts
Thanks for catching that. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Not enough info here to answer your question, but it does bring up some for you.

1. why reflash?

2. what has been done to the bike?
Exhaust
Airbox lid
engine mods.

3. O2 sensor bike?
What year?

I would NOT change the ecu map unless there is a need, you found a problem (TPS) so fix that before creating another. If the bike has slip ons but a closed (stock ) airbox then the ecu can be trimmed as is with no map change. If you have O2 sensors then changing to a DP map and eliminating the O2 sensors will help low rpm driveability. The bike should run much better when the TPS is set but know that the injection is a system of interdependent adjustments. Sync effects TPS which also effects idle and all effect the air/fuel ratio, if you set tps and then sync you might find the tps has now changed. Same for adjusting the idle stop. Not so for adjusting the air bypass which only effects sync and air /fuel.

You have a great tool to re-set tps and if you can sync it then get as far as you can. Without a air/fuel meter you are flying blind as far as how the fueling is but you should be able to get close. Having the ecu re-mapped may just add another layer of unknowns.

On the bike, 2004 St(Open Loop) 3 FBF pipes, open air box with Ducati Performance filter. 5AM Ducati Performance Race map. Stock motor...

Thx for the tip of not reflashing the ecu. I have done some research, the DP Race Map is over rich and lean in the lower circuit. Before the dealer my did my 36,000 mile service, I have done all the work on the ST 3, excluding the valves. I stopped doing them after my third or fourth time, I dropped a half ring and the stress almost killed. Plus the exhaust valves are a big pain, the help spring is a beast.

Forgot to say, that I had a problem with the Houston Ducati reflash(DP Race Map). and reflashed with a Rexxer map and the 15,000 service it runs like a new bike. So I do feel that the Rexxer over the DP Race map is better suited for a Ducati. I have a preference for the Rexxer maps, in the case of the Monster, is performing better with the Rexxer map.

So what I am looking for is either a Rexxer tool $600, or a Tune Boy for $250. Both tools can reflash one ecu, reset TPS etc. Rexxer is what I have experience and like the map, but Tune Boy is what people are charging for a reflash, which is normally $300 to about $400. Dealers will charge for the reflash and maybe plus $200 to reset the TPS. So I pay for the tool, no matter which one I work with. Plus for Rexxer, it is a USA company. If I ever have problems the tool or software is easy to deal with.

I do have the TechnoResearch tool to set the trimmer, reset the service light etc. Exhaust sniffing tool, belt tension tool, the EMS shim kit, turning tool etc, to do the whole service.

I am really getting tired of the 6,000 mile intervals for my bikes. I what to get both the Monster and the ST 3, in top shape. I will be selling them both, and getting a new bike with 18,000 mile intervals. The only one I know of is Ducati Multistrada Enduro.
Thx,
Mark
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,476 Posts
A st3 without O2 sensors and with exhaust , open airbox and a Dp ecu should be easily tuned to run great. If it does not there is something wrong or the tune is not being done properly. I have some Rexxer exposure but do not imagine it should be much different than the DP performance ecu if the map is close. The bike should run great with what you have adding more major changes without figuring out why yours is not right will not help.

Buying a rexxer tool for yourself to play with will do you no good if you do not have the ability to see what you are doing. The bike needs a dyno to capture what the air fuel ratios are at each given throttle position and rpm. You can not do this seat of the pants with any accuracy. It sounds as you have little to no faith in your dealers around you so search out someone who has a great reputation for tuning and owns a dyno. Base line tune always needs to be done before any dyno tuning should be done, I had a m900 in the shop for dyno tune recently and it turned out the engine had a burnt valve and a failing ecu. A dyno map built on a problem will not fix your problem.

It should be fixable for sure but if you are going to keep it find the issue and the bike should run fine. swapping canned maps and hoping for the best or buying a mapping tune and throwing darts in the dark will be frustrating.

Punch on this forum may be able to help you set your bike up for data logging and then you can modify with an idea what is going on. Other than that I would use your TechnoResearch tool to set all the specs and get the bike on a dyno to get an air fuel ration. A base run (3 pulls) should be 1/2 hour labor and well worth the money, you NEED to also run the bike at the rpms and throttle angles where you are having your issues. You can record air fuel at any point and document what you have. If it is good then changing maps or mapping is not your problem.

I am really getting tired of the 6,000 mile intervals for my bikes.
I can tell you that past 20.000 miles most of my customers bikes are doing 10-12000 mile intervals, The heads need the time to fully settle in but once done there is no problem running longer intervals. This is all dependent on running a closing clearance that is not too loose (even in ducati spec loose side can be bad for closers). The more slop the more wear, simple equation. If you are having to replace 1/2 rings something is wrong. you still need a belt inspection around 6000 miles but that makes tunes quicker and easier.

18000 mile intervals are great if you rack up the miles as it keeps you out of the shop but don't be surprised if the costs end up the same. don't get me wrong new bikes are fun so if you need a reason then yes you need a new bike. If on the other hand you like the st3 and just have this issue find someone who can fix your bike it will be much less money than a new bike.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
A st3 without O2 sensors and with exhaust , open airbox and a Dp ecu should be easily tuned to run great. If it does not there is something wrong or the tune is not being done properly. I have some Rexxer exposure but do not imagine it should be much different than the DP performance ecu if the map is close. The bike should run great with what you have adding more major changes without figuring out why yours is not right will not help.

Buying a rexxer tool for yourself to play with will do you no good if you do not have the ability to see what you are doing. The bike needs a dyno to capture what the air fuel ratios are at each given throttle position and rpm. You can not do this seat of the pants with any accuracy. It sounds as you have little to no faith in your dealers around you so search out someone who has a great reputation for tuning and owns a dyno. Base line tune always needs to be done before any dyno tuning should be done, I had a m900 in the shop for dyno tune recently and it turned out the engine had a burnt valve and a failing ecu. A dyno map built on a problem will not fix your problem.

It should be fixable for sure but if you are going to keep it find the issue and the bike should run fine. swapping canned maps and hoping for the best or buying a mapping tune and throwing darts in the dark will be frustrating.

Punch on this forum may be able to help you set your bike up for data logging and then you can modify with an idea what is going on. Other than that I would use your TechnoResearch tool to set all the specs and get the bike on a dyno to get an air fuel ration. A base run (3 pulls) should be 1/2 hour labor and well worth the money, you NEED to also run the bike at the rpms and throttle angles where you are having your issues. You can record air fuel at any point and document what you have. If it is good then changing maps or mapping is not your problem.



I can tell you that past 20.000 miles most of my customers bikes are doing 10-12000 mile intervals, The heads need the time to fully settle in but once done there is no problem running longer intervals. This is all dependent on running a closing clearance that is not too loose (even in ducati spec loose side can be bad for closers). The more slop the more wear, simple equation. If you are having to replace 1/2 rings something is wrong. you still need a belt inspection around 6000 miles but that makes tunes quicker and easier.

18000 mile intervals are great if you rack up the miles as it keeps you out of the shop but don't be surprised if the costs end up the same. don't get me wrong new bikes are fun so if you need a reason then yes you need a new bike. If on the other hand you like the st3 and just have this issue find someone who can fix your bike it will be much less money than a new bike.
You are correct, I do trust a shop near me, so off to do the tune up and then I will have the local guy do a dyno run. It does make more sense approaching the issues that way.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
I use Tuneecu for making modifications and reflashing this model ECU. I highly recommend using the DP ECU you have. If it's a virgin ecu the immobilizer will be eliminated. If you had your existing factory ecu reflashed it can be either way, eliminated or left alone. I used the DP ecu on my bike with only the open pipes with no db inserts. I chose to use the stock airbox lid and filter as I didn't like the noise and it worked great like that for over 30k miles.

If your Monster is of the same generation as the ST3, yes the ECU's are the same and can be flashed with the appropriate map for which bike it is used in. But you can not take the ECU with the ST3 map and run it unchanged. It would need to be flashed with a Monster map.


Whenever you change or remap an ECU it must have the TPS reset after installing in the bike. And with the O2 sensors eliminated with the DP map you will also probably need to set the fuel trim to get the smoothest low speed fueling. I've always done this by seat of the pants trial and error. Some people choose to use a tail pipe sensor and tune for a certain CO level. The fuel trim can not be adjusted on a bike running the O2 sensors as this is the fueling area controlled by the O2 sensors.
I have an open loop on my ST3, so no issue with 02 sensors. Of course, my Monster has 02 sensors.

I just saw a youtube thing on the Tuneecu and that is what I am looking for. If I understand correctly, you can also check vacuum. If that is correct, then I don't have to hookup my Carbtune tool up. But sadly, it appears that Alain Fontaine's web page is frozen and no longer supported. Which I guess means I use the Rexxer, with no visual interface with a computer, or purchase a TundBoy which is not apples to apples to to the Tuneecu tool.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I have an open loop on my ST3, so no issue with 02 sensors. Of course, my Monster has 02 sensors.

I just saw a youtube thing on the Tuneecu and that is what I am looking for. If I understand correctly, you can also check vacuum. If that is correct, then I don't have to hookup my Carbtune tool up. But sadly, it appears that Alain Fontaine's web page is frozen and no longer supported. Which I guess means I use the Rexxer, with no visual interface with a computer, or purchase a TundBoy which is not apples to apples to to the Tuneecu tool.
Ok I just went thru the bike checking it with my Centurion tool, TPS was set at 4.6 and idle was 1300. I went ahead and checked my LT repair manual and there is no listing for the TPS, so I went ahead and set the idle at 1150 ish and the TPS at 3.2. I have seen some of the TPS should at 2.3 or 2.6 (403 Volts). What is the correct setting for a 2004 ST 3 non ABS Non linear TPS?
Thx,
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
I just finished setting my TPS to 2.3 degrees as per original oem Ducati manual. Idle at 1100. Runs great
Where did you get tps setting at 3.2 from?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,662 Posts
my manuals say 2.6. although it does say that is 403mv in the 2004 manual, which is nominally 2.4 in other tables.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
196 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I just finished setting my TPS to 2.3 degrees as per original oem Ducati manual. Idle at 1100. Runs great
Where did you get tps setting at 3.2 from?
I was wrong, TPS is 2.3 or 403 volts
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top