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Sucks to hear he's not happy (not that anyone probably expected him to be at this point), but I'm glad he's come out and said what we all knew; the CRT bikes are shit.

His comments about it being hard to compete when you know you wont win are pretty deep. Sounds like the CRT makers aren't even trying to refine the bikes, rather they're letting the riders try and sort them out. Keeping in mind, most of the CRT riders aren't capable of creating a winning formula, otherwise they wouldn't be on the CRT bikes in the first place....
 

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I like Edwards he says what's on his mind obviously and it's not always politically correct. However he does it in a way which commands respect from his peers.
It's either GP bikes or CRT-not both. Can you imagine this in F1 racing!
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Can you imagine this in F1 racing!
back in the day they ran what we now call GP 2 cars also to fill the grid

"some Grand Prix grids (notably in Germany, where the long circuit at the Nürburgring could cope with large entries) would be a mix of Formula One and Formula Two cars"
 

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Where's the news. Everyone knew that CRT bikes would be and are totally uncompetitive. I am absolutely amazed that Attack thought it would be a great to build their own POS CRT machine for Rapp to run around at the back of the field. What a waste of time and money
 

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Edwards should have gone strait back to WSBK. Who know's he probably would have been up on a podium by now and smiling a whole lot more. :)
 

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Edwards should have gone strait back to WSBK. Who know's he probably would have been up on a podium by now and smiling a whole lot more. :)
+1 You have four competitive bikes at the front now from four different manufacturers. Both BMW and Kawasaki get the award for most improved while Aprilia gets one for being over confident in the off season. Overall the Ducati is competitive, but the track has to be conducive and not have long straights because it is now underpowered relatively speaking. At the time when the Panigale was released and the initial reviews were very positive, the Duc was going to be a real force in 2013. Now I'm not so sure. The reports aren't as glowing, apparently Checa's testing didn't go that well. In other words there are signs of trouble ahead and knowing the rigidness of Ducati Corse in general or as a company, the improvement curve will be slow. Thats unless Audi snaps the whip even though they are new to two wheel racing and rumored to take a lower profile the first year of ownership.

What I can't reconcile is the frameless controversy. So its not the answer as Ducati GP realized, I would think the same problems will surface with the frameless Panegali. I wonder if Ducati has considered this possibility? If they return to a frame based design, they loose the advantage of weight. If they add a bunch of weight I wonder how that will impact the overall suspension? I doubt Ducati will do anything about the frame just yet because the first year or two will be work in progress in getting the bike sorted. So does that mean whoever is atop the bike will essentially be developmental riders when the thought was the Panigale was ready from the get go with only "minor" adjustments projected. I could be all wet, but I think Checa saw the writing on the wall and at his age and lack of love for the bike might cause him to go elsewhere. The Kawasaki's seat is warm and ready to ride unless Ducati and Audi convinced him his concerns will be addressed promptly and the project funded properly. However, I'm still hung up on the frameless issue because I think their stance is "lets see how it goes". If things go in the toilet it will be half the season gone before any changes are seriously implemented. Man, if it can be proven the frameless design is more of a hindrance than helpful, the engineers and those who signed off on the project will have some rotten eggs on their face. I think they should go bye bye anyway in MotoGP.

I'm not saying the WSBK frame design is the same as MotoGP, only in concept because I don't know if the WSBK set up utilizes the same materials such as carbon fiber in the GP bikes. Apparently what cf gave in strength and less weight, it lacked the ability to communicate feedback to the rider.
 

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IMO, if they are going to continue putting two dissimilar classes of machines in the same race then, to be fair, treat them as two entirely separate classes. For example, have a Prototype classification and CRT classification with a "first in race" winner and a "first in class" winner. Let the CRT boys at least have the chance to be on the top of their pile. If safety is truly an issue (which Colin spoke of) then work out separate practice and qualifying schedules and wear out the slower rider "blue flag" throughout the whole time the two classes are on track together. If it's going to work then DORNA has to do what it takes to make it work. So far, or so it seems, their only goal has been to fill the grid dangling the "come race in Motogp!" carrot without really thinking the particulars through. Thank you, Colin for being the first within the paddock to finally point out that the Emperor ain't wearing any clothes.
 

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If Dorna were really as serious about CRT bikes as they pretend to be, they'd be pushing to get Rossi on one not pulling every available string to get him back on a Yamaha.

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IMO, if they are going to continue putting two dissimilar classes of machines in the same race then, to be fair, treat them as two entirely separate classes. For example, have a Prototype classification and CRT classification with a "first in race" winner and a "first in class" winner. Let the CRT boys at least have the chance to be on the top of their pile. If safety is truly an issue (which Colin spoke of) then work out separate practice and qualifying schedules and wear out the slower rider "blue flag" throughout the whole time the two classes are on track together. If it's going to work then DORNA has to do what it takes to make it work. So far, or so it seems, their only goal has been to fill the grid dangling the "come race in Motogp!" carrot without really thinking the particulars through. Thank you, Colin for being the first within the paddock to finally point out that the Emperor ain't wearing any clothes.
No disrespect, but I think Stoner said it already, & gave them Dorna the divorce finger sometime ago. Spies is probably of the same opinion.

Craig
 

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What I can't reconcile is the frameless controversy. So its not the answer as Ducati GP realized, I would think the same problems will surface with the frameless Panegali. I wonder if Ducati has considered this possibility? If they return to a frame based design, they loose the advantage of weight. If they add a bunch of weight I wonder how that will impact the overall suspension? I doubt Ducati will do anything about the frame just yet because the first year or two will be work in progress in getting the bike sorted.
If WSBK is a "production" series and not a prototype like GP, wouldn't Ducati need to introduce a new Superbike in order to make a major change like returning to the trellis or introducing a twin spar in WSBK?

Should the Panigale be a dog in WSBK could we see Ducati going the way of other small manufacturers with glorious racing history? Can you say MV Agusta?
 

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No disrespect, but I think Stoner said it already, & gave them Dorna the divorce finger sometime ago. Spies is probably of the same opinion.

Craig
Craig,
Absolutely no disrespect taken. On the one hand, I can't find fault with them wanting to fill the grid and lower operating costs. Those are more than reasonable goals to aim for. The problem has been (as pointed out by Casey and in a de facto manner by Spies exiting the very series he was so desperate to get into) the execution just down right sucks. Dorna has not taken the time to fully explore the blatant and potentially dangerous situation it's put the riders in with such a big gap between the fastest and slowest bikes.

In the end we've ended up with the same old racing that we've had before with one addition: Two or three, the same two or three, fighting it out for the win. The same group fighting it out for sixth to third place, then the remaining prototypes, followed by the also-ran's in CRT bringing up the rear. Nothing has been gained by combining two separate classes of machines.
 

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If WSBK is a "production" series and not a prototype like GP, wouldn't Ducati need to introduce a new Superbike in order to make a major change like returning to the trellis or introducing a twin spar in WSBK?

Should the Panigale be a dog in WSBK could we see Ducati going the way of other small manufacturers with glorious racing history? Can you say MV Agusta?
Why would the Panigale be a dog in Superbike? It is leading the Superstock class
 

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Why would the Panigale be a dog in Superbike? It is leading the Superstock class
Super"stock" and Super"bike" class are worlds apart aren't they. It seems to be more than a rumour that Checa is not happy with the Panigale. IIRC a BSB team gave up on the 1199...????
I wonder if Ducati made a mistake with the Frameless design.....for why, for what, to save 11lbs....where, why, to make it the lightest street bike? Even Checa's 1198RS with it's trellis frame comes in too light for WSBK, so much so that it keeps the exhaust all steel instead of titanium and have a weight a penalty. So why go the frameless route?, just to prove they can, to be different...seems so right?
In retrospect maybe Ducati should have put this engine in a trellis frame and found a better way to get more weight over the front wheel.....
 

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Super"stock" and Super"bike" class are worlds apart aren't they. It seems to be more than a rumour that Checa is not happy with the Panigale. IIRC a BSB team gave up on the 1199...????
I wonder if Ducati made a mistake with the Frameless design.....for why, for what, to save 11lbs....where, why, to make it the lightest street bike? Even Checa's 1198RS with it's trellis frame comes in too light for WSBK, so much so that it keeps the exhaust all steel instead of titanium and have a weight a penalty. So why go the frameless route?, just to prove they can, to be different...seems so right?
In retrospect maybe Ducati should have put this engine in a trellis frame and found a better way to get more weight over the front wheel.....
The reasons for dumping the trellis frame have been well covered and have little to do with weight from a racing perspective. The main change is a lengthened swingarm for more traction and steeper geometry for easier change of direction that are allowed by rotating the engine back. The trellis frame limited the size of the air box too. Times from testing of the SBK seem very competitive and the source of the Checa rumour is just some Facebook rant so hardly compelling.

Finally the issue with the GP12 relates more to the tire carcass stiffness of the spec Bridestone tires something that isn't relevant for Superbike racing
 

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If Panigales starts cracking their monocoque frames when landing wheelies, Ducati has a problem. If the Panigale does poorly in WSBK because of an understeer issue that even remotely resembles the problems of the GP bikes, Ducati has a problem. If the cost of servicing the Panigale is twice that of a trellis frame bike because it has to be disassembled to get to the heads/TB's etc, Ducati has a problem.

The monocoque frame has to prove itself both, on the track and in the real world for Ducati to calm the qualms of buyers who are still on the fence. Considering BMW just upped the stakes on performance with their HP4 s1kRR, Ducati has a big problem if the Panigale doesn't deliver. No doubt it will sell, but it may sell like the 999, too few.
 
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