[YellowDuck]

Yes, we have done this before - such a shame that it will never happen.

When you look at how light they managed to make the new Monster 1100, it seems like a new air cooled SS could undercut any Japanese 600 for weight, make near 100 rwhp with only mild tuning, and produce as much torque as an I-4 1000, at much lower rpm. With top shelf suspension components (or even nearly) and good brakes it would be the perfect sportbike for the street. Basically, it would be an affordable DB5.

But sadly, only 5% of potential buyers would see past the fact that it doesn't make 150 hp. That's just the way it is.

 

[YellowDuck]

You see, it is that type of spec-sheet masturbation that prevents 95% of riders from seeing the value of this type of bike.

We are talking about street bikes here. A typical Japanese I-4 superbike is tuned very much for top end performance - the torque curve rises almost all the way to redline. So yes, it might make 160 hp...****but you CAN'T use it on the street***.

Do you know how fast you are going if you take a ZX-10 to redline in FIRST gear? Almost exactly 100 mph. And if you actually use all of the power in first gear (i.e., actually keep the throttle wide open) you will loop the bike for sure.

You can use WOT in third gear, but by the time you get to the 160-hp power peak, you have lost your license for sure. Anyone who buys a 1000cc superbike for the street because they believe they need and can use 160 hp just has no idea.

A 1000-cc air-cooled twin can provide the same things as a 1000-cc liquid cooled I-4 that are actually important for street riding: heaps of torque to pull you out of corners, and enough grunt to accelerate stoopid-quick up to 80 mph. And, it can do it with a motor that is simple, narrow and light. This SS could weigh under 400 lbs wet. That's 35 lbs less than a GSXR600, and I am guessing about 50 lbs less than a GSXR1000.

 

[YellowDuck]

I hate to say this, but I really get the feeling that Ducati considers the Sport Classics line to be the new Supersport.

You are 100% correct about that I would say. Smart move on their part, because by retreating to the "retro" category they avoid direct spec sheet comparisons with true sportbikes, like the one you made above.

The problem is that they de-contented the bikes too much in the process. Look at what most of us SC owners do - get rid of the spoked wheels and low-spec brakes, tune for more power, and (especially) upgrade the suspension. We are building our own Supersports, because Ducati won't build them for us!

There is a thread on the SC forum right now, where a vendor has found a way to rectify the ridiculous intake restrictions on the SC models, so that power can get up to what you would expect with a mildly tuned SS1000. Every SC owner wants that mod.

 

[YellowDuck]

I was just having fun with the "spec sheet masturbation" comment. No offence intended!

I would actually argue that peak hp is important, because hp divided by the total gearing (transmission and final drive) gives you the torque at the wheel, which is what produces acceleration. A high torque value is useless if it arrives at a very low rpm, because by the time you apply enough gearing to give a normal road speed, the torque at the rear wheel is greatly reduced (as stlemans already explained).

This gets a bit confusing, because the following is true, even though it seems like a dichotomy: in any given gear, maximum acceleration occurs at the engine speed that produces maximum crankshaft *torque*, but if you can choose the gearing, maximum acceleration occurs in the gear that gives maximum crankshaft *hp*.

Frankly, if you can't wrap your head around that, you can't really fully understand this topic. Peak hp *is* important. My point about the I4 bikes is that they produce peak hp at such high rpm that it is essentially inaccessible at anything like normal street velocities (unless of course your alter the gearing really really radically, or spend all of your time in first gear!).

So, comparing power to weight ratios between something like a DS1000 and a GSXR1000 is not that meaningful, because you are comparing a peak hp value that you can actually use (arrives at 7500 rpm) with one that you can't (arrives at 13000 rpm, and you are already speeding in first gear).

I'm not saying that a DS1000 is going to be as fast as a GSXR1000 in street riding where the upper limit is held to, say, 80 mph. I am just saying that the difference between the two will be a heck of a lot smaller than one might guess by looking at something like the power to weight ratio.

(Oh, and about really *light* bikes and power-to-weight...don't forget to factor in the weight of the rider when you do those calculations. We are not really comparing 350 lbs to 450 lbs (29% difference), we are comparing 500 lbs to 600 lbs (20%), or even 550 lbs to 650 lbs (18%)....)