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Discussion Starter #1
So I have ordered up the cables downloaded the software and dumped the ROM on the ecu with success. I'm planning on loading a generic "base" map to see how well the low RPM fuel issues is cleaned up. I should be able to do a custom tune once I figure out who I want to to tune it.


Has anyone else used the software for a custom tune or are you just using the base maps?

I figured we could use this thread to share some maps (.dds files) and info about the Ducati Diag tool. Personally, I really like the idea of being able to adjust when the fans kick on based on temp. :D

I'm also kinda shocked this forum doesn't have a dedicated tuning section or subsection for each bike. There are a ton of different options out there for these bikes but not one dedicated place to go and talk about it.
 

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I agree that there should be a dedicated sticky on tuning topic. Specifically, fuel maps for the various different tuners/ecu's.

That is.... besides the typical cursory "read the FAQ" reply.... This has been discussed a TON on here.
 

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I flashed mine using Ducatidiag with the full Termi map as a richer baseline to work from, disabled Lambda's and exhaust flapper servo & cable (flapper's gone since the 134DD system install).

I've been tweaking the map very slowly and deliberately about once a week, or as riding time allows for proper diagnosis of any problem areas. After a 3-day trip to Deal's Gap,Cherohala, six gap and the triangle I trimmed a little in the 3500-4000 rpm range because it felt a little sluggish rolling on in the slowest corners, but honestly I feel like the map is probably 90% correct right now.

If I do anything further it will be a Nemesis ECU and a Ducshop dyno tune, the Ducatidiag started out as just a neat (and cheap) tool for resetting the wrench and doing some system tests but the reflash is working so well I'm not sure if I'll change much until some hardware on the bike changes.

I don't know of anyone who can tune with Ducatidiag quickly and accurately, so if your plan is to take it somewhere to tweak your newly-flashed map you may be disappointed with both the cost and the results.

I may do a few dyno runs to check A/F through the range (and power of course :D) but I really don't care what the peak HP is, as long as it's a smooth curve with a proper mixture.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I agree that there should be a dedicated sticky on tuning topic. Specifically, fuel maps for the various different tuners/ecu's.

That is.... besides the typical cursory "read the FAQ" reply.... This has been discussed a TON on here.
Yes i'm sick of seeing "do a search". A list of mods and maps to go with them would be great

are you using xp or win7?
Im normally on a mac but i have an old xp laptop for the bike.

I flashed mine using Ducatidiag with the full Termi map as a richer baseline to work from, disabled Lambda's and exhaust flapper servo & cable (flapper's gone since the 134DD system install).

I've been tweaking the map very slowly and deliberately about once a week, or as riding time allows for proper diagnosis of any problem areas. After a 3-day trip to Deal's Gap,Cherohala, six gap and the triangle I trimmed a little in the 3500-4000 rpm range because it felt a little sluggish rolling on in the slowest corners, but honestly I feel like the map is probably 90% correct right now.

If I do anything further it will be a Nemesis ECU and a Ducshop dyno tune, the Ducatidiag started out as just a neat (and cheap) tool for resetting the wrench and doing some system tests but the reflash is working so well I'm not sure if I'll change much until some hardware on the bike changes.

I don't know of anyone who can tune with Ducatidiag quickly and accurately, so if your plan is to take it somewhere to tweak your newly-flashed map you may be disappointed with both the cost and the results.

I may do a few dyno runs to check A/F through the range (and power of course :D) but I really don't care what the peak HP is, as long as it's a smooth curve with a proper mixture.
The writer software give you full access to the ignition and fuel maps, I don't see any reason that you couldn't custom tune it with a gas analyzer and a dyno.

I just want to clean up the low end and make sure AFR's are good, I'm not really worried about power.
 

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just be careful when flashing, i've been through 2 xp computers, 2 win 7 x64 computers, 3 5AM ECUs, tried motorcycle batteries, DC power supplies, bought the off bike connector from chris in the forum and i have never gotten to flash any of the ECUs. I managed to create dumps for each ECU but can never write the flash into the ECUs, bricking all 3 of them.

Even JP can't help me, he ran out of ideas. All that money for all that heartache, terribly disappointed.
 

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The writer software give you full access to the ignition and fuel maps, I don't see any reason that you couldn't custom tune it with a gas analyzer and a dyno.

I just want to clean up the low end and make sure AFR's are good, I'm not really worried about power.
You absolutely can custom tune with (the paid version of) DD.....what I was trying to say was that tuners wont be thrilled with the idea of mucking around with an unfamiliar program when they can use something they're comfortable with and have a few thousand hours experience on.

It would probably take many more pulls and labor hours to (hopefully) get the same results, and they don't work for free.

If anyone knows of a tuner east of the Mississippi that's used ducatidiag I'd love to know about it, but I've not heard of any yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You absolutely can custom tune with (the paid version of) DD.....what I was trying to say was that tuners wont be thrilled with the idea of mucking around with an unfamiliar program when they can use something they're comfortable with and have a few thousand hours experience on.

It would probably take many more pulls and labor hours to (hopefully) get the same results, and they don't work for free.

If anyone knows of a tuner east of the Mississippi that's used ducatidiag I'd love to know about it, but I've not heard of any yet.
I guess i really dont care about getting more power out of the bike. I just want to make sure its safe so its nice to be able change the stock map. It shouldn't take a good tuner more than an hour or two to get it knocked out.
 

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I'm not familiar with the product used in this discussion but I have had a different product for 3.5 years.
But, the last statement got my attention.
<It shouldn't take a good tuner more than an hour or two to get it knocked out.>

Keep in mind, I'm much dumber than almost everyone, but it takes me an hour or two to get the bike on the dyno, the bodywork off, the two wideband O2 sensors hooked up and free air calibrated, the diagnostic connected, the tps reset, the throttles synchronized, and the idle AFR trimmed.
At that point I can start tuning.
Admittedly, adjusting the WOT fuel only takes a few minutes but the drivability can take a full day or more.

I'm sure I'm only highlighting my ignorance but that's the way it works for me.

Doug
 

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Without making any judgments about a particular tuner or tuning device, my experience has been that a decent full-range tune will be a half-day minimum, with possibly one exception.

IF the tuner is using tuning equipment and software that he's intimately familiar with, AND tuning a bike with the exact same pipe/filter/ecu he's done 15 or 20 times previously he might be able to get close pretty quickly if he takes good notes.

If my guy told me he could do it in 1-2 hours, I'd let him know that payment would be pending the dyno sheets and a test ride afterwards.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'm not familiar with the product used in this discussion but I have had a different product for 3.5 years.
But, the last statement got my attention.
<It shouldn't take a good tuner more than an hour or two to get it knocked out.>

Keep in mind, I'm much dumber than almost everyone, but it takes me an hour or two to get the bike on the dyno, the bodywork off, the two wideband O2 sensors hooked up and free air calibrated, the diagnostic connected, the tps reset, the throttles synchronized, and the idle AFR trimmed.
At that point I can start tuning.
Admittedly, adjusting the WOT fuel only takes a few minutes but the drivability can take a full day or more.

I'm sure I'm only highlighting my ignorance but that's the way it works for me.

Doug
Well when i say that I'm Referring to the time it takes to actually tune it once everything is setup.

Without making any judgments about a particular tuner or tuning device, my experience has been that a decent full-range tune will be a half-day minimum, with possibly one exception.

IF the tuner is using tuning equipment and software that he's intimately familiar with, AND tuning a bike with the exact same pipe/filter/ecu he's done 15 or 20 times previously he might be able to get close pretty quickly if he takes good notes.

If my guy told me he could do it in 1-2 hours, I'd let him know that payment would be pending the dyno sheets and a test ride afterwards.
I come from the car tuning industry so my perception is a little skewed. If it took our tuner at the shop here all day to flash a stock ecu I don't think anyone would want us to tune there car.

A car with basic bolt on's (intake, injectors, exhaust, etc.) would only take about an hour to tune and there are a TON more tables to change on a car. If ignition and fuel were the only two it would take no more than 3 pulls on the dyno. I guess having a knock sensor is a huge benefit.
 

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Again, my perspective, but Dynojet has set the price of what they call a 'tune' at around $200.
That represents a single Power Commander map.

First, on a twin cyl each cylinder has its own torque curve and any twin that isn't a 360 degree engine cannot have symmetrical exhaust tuning. Even the same length pipes will act differently when the engine firing order isn't symmetrical.

When you talk about car tuning you're generally dealing with an engine that has the stock exhaust dimensions (no change in torque characteristics.)
Cars have mass flow sensors on the input side (1 closed-loop system) and more have wide-band O2 sensors on the exhaust side (2 closed-loop system.)
And, lots have software adjustable boost. (Adjust-a-power.)

Cars
1) with no change in torque characteristics, the fuel tables remain appropriate
2) With wide-band sensors, the air-fuel ratio targets are adjustable
3) the boost level may be adjustable, ignition timing and fuel enrichment can be adjusted for increased inlet pressure

The question is: do the car tuners re-write the fuel tables on a 'tune?'

Bikes
1) the first thing to be changed is the exhaust system. That means that the fuel tables need to be redone to represent the new torque characteristics
2) O2 sensors are exclusively narrow-band so the light load closed-loop operation is around 14.6:1 AFR. Turning off this closed-loop operation is the best way to get good drivability, but then you need to adjust the fuel tables to get there.

Maybe I've completely 'missed the boat' but I haven't been able to get the level of quality I look for in a couple hours.
Yes, you can get 'better than stock' in a couple hours, but can you get good?

Now there are several companies that offer the ability to re-flash ECUs. They have discovered the first step in the process and found a way to get money from every 'flash', but they are still offering a 'canned' flash, something that Dynojet has been selling for decades.
Power Commander tuners have known that those 'canned' maps don't work as well as they should. People without dynos may not know this. (That is why I have said; 'if you don't check your work, you can assume it's perfect')

Doug
 

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wanted: Ducatidiag DoubleDog Map

Hi there, just curious if anyone with doubledog have a tuned ducatidiag map to share?
 

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Hi there, just curious if anyone with doubledog have a tuned ducatidiag map to share?
If you've mentioned and I missed it I apologize but......which 'fighter and which DD system?
 

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Hi there, just curious if anyone with doubledog have a tuned ducatidiag map to share?
Prob best requesting this on Ducati Diag. Not much on here at the mo :(
 

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People using DucatiDiag have got to accept also the limitations of what "Writer" offers. Yes you can upgrade from the stock map to a DP map. Yes you can eliminate O2 sensors and flapper valve. BUT, when using Writer to say build a custom tune, it lacks a very important link to the procedure.

There is no tuning link for modifying the map like other tunable ECU's or piggybacks offer. So you are left with say putting a bike on a dyno and sniffing the exhaust. Analyzing the run, then manually adjusting the map based on the run. I think this is where you will spend more time than you think in accomplishing what can be done with a system that allows target AFR and timing adjustments.

In a sense, yes, a tuner with a simple tool like DucatiDiag should be able to tune the bike, but a tuner with more integrated tools will do so more effectively and in less time.

I was EXTREMELY pleased with Doug's tune on my SF. I was happy with the results of using DucatiDiag on my Hyper, just to remove all the crap and run the DP flash... but it still is not a custom tune that takes into account my aftermarket exhaust with the exactly adjustments that Doug or similar tuners offer. With additions like the Double D that have good flow, and possibly reworking the airbox and matching the injector and giving the bike in that form to Doug... that's when you see what a tuner can do and what DucatiDiag Writer just isn't up to the task or rather just would take too long to achieve the same goal of a perfect custom tune....

I feel comfortable putzing (tuning) with the twin air cooled tuning, but with the SF, I just didn't have the knowledge, tools, and patience. I enjoyed and learned a good deal using the MicroTec, but again, you have to have the time, patience and tools to really get specific results. Mark at the DucShop tuned the bike initially, then I sent my stock ECU to Doug and swapped injectors and had NPR Ducati do the final TPS/Balancing during a scheduled visit for warranty stuff.

The results in comparison, for me, I found the MircoTec to have a good tune for really grunting off the bottom. With Doug's tune, the all around feeling was very predictable in the torque curve. And for me, that made me ride more confidently since I'm no Joe Racer, just a guy who likes to ride.

Either way, what my MAIN goal was, was to avoid a piggy back. And the Doug Lofgren tune had the bike warming proper, running proper while the MicroTec needed more tuning to cure cold starting issues. If I lived closer to Atlanta, I probably would have stuck with the MicroTec, but no one locally had a clue and I would label myself a n00b when it comes to what the MicroTec was capable of. So while Writer is capable of doing things, I would not put it in the class of the other tools available. It does what it does well... upgrade your stock ECU to DP status.... imho:)
 

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Doug will be the only one to touch my bike once I get off my ass and drive 6+ hours to him and do it.

The problem is that I am really happy with my current "canned" tuneboy tune so it is on the backburner for now. I still wonder how much better it could be though.

Doug, did you ever get that new thing set up? :D
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Again, my perspective, but Dynojet has set the price of what they call a 'tune' at around $200.
That represents a single Power Commander map.

First, on a twin cyl each cylinder has its own torque curve and any twin that isn't a 360 degree engine cannot have symmetrical exhaust tuning. Even the same length pipes will act differently when the engine firing order isn't symmetrical.

When you talk about car tuning you're generally dealing with an engine that has the stock exhaust dimensions (no change in torque characteristics.)
Cars have mass flow sensors on the input side (1 closed-loop system) and more have wide-band O2 sensors on the exhaust side (2 closed-loop system.)
And, lots have software adjustable boost. (Adjust-a-power.)

Cars
1) with no change in torque characteristics, the fuel tables remain appropriate
2) With wide-band sensors, the air-fuel ratio targets are adjustable
3) the boost level may be adjustable, ignition timing and fuel enrichment can be adjusted for increased inlet pressure

The question is: do the car tuners re-write the fuel tables on a 'tune?'

Bikes
1) the first thing to be changed is the exhaust system. That means that the fuel tables need to be redone to represent the new torque characteristics
2) O2 sensors are exclusively narrow-band so the light load closed-loop operation is around 14.6:1 AFR. Turning off this closed-loop operation is the best way to get good drivability, but then you need to adjust the fuel tables to get there.

Maybe I've completely 'missed the boat' but I haven't been able to get the level of quality I look for in a couple hours.
Yes, you can get 'better than stock' in a couple hours, but can you get good?

Now there are several companies that offer the ability to re-flash ECUs. They have discovered the first step in the process and found a way to get money from every 'flash', but they are still offering a 'canned' flash, something that Dynojet has been selling for decades.
Power Commander tuners have known that those 'canned' maps don't work as well as they should. People without dynos may not know this. (That is why I have said; 'if you don't check your work, you can assume it's perfect')

Doug

I work almost exclusively with boosted applications so when modifying them you always have to adjust the fuel tables. The front o2 acts as a narrow band o2 sensor so you cant just target an AFR unless its an extremely advanced ecu like a Porsche 996-997

While tuning any motor be it a car or a motorcycle it all comes down to a solid grasp on engine theory.

The automotive world seems to be extremely different in a few aspects (not something i really realized until now, thanks Doug) but there is a LOT of support and software out there for a lot of vehicles. Refreshing a stock ecu is something that seems to be relatively new to the motorcycle world and car enthusiasts have been doing it for a long time now. Hell you can build a new Nissan GTR to make over 1250whp by reflashing the ecu and make it drive like stock....pretty amazing.

Doug, what are you using to tune/re-flash?

Im so far happy with just disabling the lambda sensors along with the exhaust valve but if you can custom tune the stock ecu to run even better I wouldn't mind taking the drive up.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Doug will be the only one to touch my bike once I get off my ass and drive 6+ hours to him and do it.

The problem is that I am really happy with my current "canned" tuneboy tune so it is on the backburner for now. I still wonder how much better it could be though.

Doug, did you ever get that new thing set up? :D

I wonder the same really. How much better is it :confused:
 

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I was EXTREMELY pleased with Doug's tune on my SF. I was happy with the results of using DucatiDiag on my Hyper, just to remove all the crap and run the DP flash... but it still is not a custom tune that takes into account my aftermarket exhaust with the exactly adjustments that Doug or similar tuners offer. With additions like the Double D that have good flow, and possibly reworking the airbox and matching the injector and giving the bike in that form to Doug... that's when you see what a tuner can do and what DucatiDiag Writer just isn't up to the task or rather just would take too long to achieve the same goal of a perfect custom tune....
that streetfighter S dump you made is before or after doug's tune?
 
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