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Discussion Starter #1
We've all talked about the DTC system, but I thought it would be kinda interesting to start a new thread about it to bring it back onto the table. What I wrote here is on some discussions I've had with Ducati factory reps, so it does contain some accurate info.

What is DTC?

Well, it stands for Ducati Traction Control and what it really means is; Magneti Marelli licensed the race system to Ducati and dumbed it down for our meager use. The good news is, the software algorithm used is identical to the race system. Its a learning computer that can (with enough laps on the track) predict when the tire is going to slide based on lean angle and wheel spin.

What's the Black box?

Its the guts of the system containing (though Ducati doesn't wanna admit it) a very primitive excelerometer which can sense what the bike is doing at any given moment. Its position is extremely important because the software is written to work with data coming from that position.

What's the catch?

Well, its a $40k system, they're giving to you for free on a Streetfighter S/1198S/1098R, so its a pretty good deal. But because the system is totally non-adjustable besides when and for how long it kicks in, the user can't tell the system what diameter tire is in use, how far away the rear tire is from the front (IE: longer wheel base) and of course, my favorite; you can't change either the front or rear rotor without massive and expensive upgrades to the wheel sensors. Finally, you have to literally stop the bike to change TC settings. How about changing the ride height? What about FG forks (which don't have the sensor plug built-in).

What does it all mean?

To have DTC on a street bike is great, but its for the track. You can't upgrade the bike, without consequences. So let say you wanna run Dunlop 211's, which are taller then the standard Pirelli's? They are a taller tire and it WILL throw-off the TC system. How about when your setting up your suspension and you want more rear ride height, can't do that either without consequences.

Finally:

The system does work if not meddled with. Use the stock tires, have some fun at track days and ya know what? It will work great. Wanna really use the system with different tires and set up the bike properly, you might as well be looking into a glass ball to determine how well its going to work because in all honesty, Ducati have zero intentions on supporting a bike that uses anything else but the stock tires and suspension settings.

Great system
Majorally flawed


Time for some discussion

Do you like it?
What bugs you about it?
Would you recommend it to others?



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Time for some discussion

Do you like it?
What bugs you about it?
Would you recommend it to others?
Good topic for a discussion.

First question: I like that Ducati are dominating the WSBK. The DTC can't be that bad.

2nd: The blackbox, and contraints you mention about setting up suspension, and/or changing tyres.

3rd: Probably depending on how well a DTC demonstrates itself in competition, and/or on slippery conditions.
 

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Apologies in advance for my ignorance but I don't understand why changing ride height will affect system.

I can understand how changing the tire rolling diameter(front relative to rear) can adversely affect the system but not the ride height.

Let's say lean angle is constant (as in vertical or full lean) and the rear starts to slip, i can't see how the ride height will affect the system especially since it's adaptive.

Presumably the accelerometer will measure rate of change of lean angle and assuming there is also a lean angle sensor then there should be no impact by changing ride height.
 

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based on documentation from Ducati most tire changes will not affect system for levels 1-3 as the speed differential is within the system tolerance.
 

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If the sensor is in the tail of the bike, changing the ride height would change its overall position in space. That is the only reasoning I can think of that would affect the system. I am not sure why the sensor is calibrated with a ride height, maybe for the amount of travel the suspension is doing? If that is the case, then if the designated height was altered then the sensor would be reading some suspension travel at speed zero. That is all I can come up with.
 

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Strange.

It's trivial for the system to recognize any new tire diameters automatically, so why don't they do that?

Tom
 

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I'd be more concerned if the OP spelled "accelerometer" correctly...

Without even reviewing the detailed specs of the system I'm willing to bet that the variables being discussed are not significant enough to drastically affect the performance of the system.

On the same vein, you don't have to reprogram the X-drive system of my BMW car just because you change tire/wheel sizes.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Without even reviewing the detailed specs of the system I'm willing to bet that the variables being discussed are not significant enough to drastically affect the performance of the system.
Actually, using Dunlop tires alone, causes the system to not work properly.

Ride height plays a big part in the over-all performance of the machine. The "black-box" is positioned in exact xy position's relative to the design. Ducati says 5mm worth of change is ok, but no more. Ride height changes could be up to 10-20mm. If you wanna stink-bug the bike, IE bring the front ride height down a lot and raise the rear, the TC has been known to not wor

It's trivial for the system to recognize any new tire diameters automatically, so why don't they do that?
My point exactly... On the dash board, you can type in the exact measurement of your tire and be done with it. Wanna know the reason why Ducati doesn't provide that feature? Because that would break the contract they signed with Magneti Marelli AND piss the living shit out of Pirelli. I asked the Ducati factory rep that question and he rolled his eyes. Not only that, but the Ducati racers I know, all roll there eyes about the DTC. :(



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DTC is definitely worth it, especially on bikes like the 1198 and Streetfighter, which have abundant amounts of torque. The 8 modes of adjustment allows the system to give a little bit of slip, while maintaining the overall safety net. Everyone of our riders who take our demo bikes out never complain about the system interfering excessively, and that is with the system set on level 5. It is critical to remember that while the system is does an excellent job of providing an additional amount of safety, it cannot defy the laws of physics. One should not overly rely on the system as an excuse to ride irresponsibly.
 

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Any programming freaks out there want to tackle the black box? It seems like that is the only thing that can be done. Find the point of ride height and tire size and be able to adjust those, even if it is simply a reflash. Most people will adjust the suspension once, and choose a tire and stick with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #14

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Actually, using Dunlop tires alone, causes the system to not work properly.

Ride height plays a big part in the over-all performance of the machine. The "black-box" is positioned in exact xy position's relative to the design. Ducati says 5mm worth of change is ok, but no more. Ride height changes could be up to 10-20mm. If you wanna stink-bug the bike, IE bring the front ride height down a lot and raise the rear, the TC has been known to not wor



My point exactly... On the dash board, you can type in the exact measurement of your tire and be done with it. Wanna know the reason why Ducati doesn't provide that feature? Because that would break the contract they signed with Magneti Marelli AND piss the living shit out of Pirelli. I asked the Ducati factory rep that question and he rolled his eyes. Not only that, but the Ducati racers I know, all roll there eyes about the DTC. :(
I don't understand why people who don't have it seem to question it so much and know so much about it...

I can tell you the following truths..

it does work with the Dunlop slicks (GP racers) and ride height /suspension changes do NOT affect it... it does work with different size rims and slicks..

I am just about to start playing with the gearing so will let you know how tolerant it is with that as well...

It is a great system, it should NOT be used by anyone as a fail safe "ill never lose control" system.. i think that Ducati should be applauded for bringing this system to the street, not bagged because every wanna be boy racer can't adjust it to exactly how he wants...
 

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Discussion Starter #16
It does work with the Dunlop slicks (GP racers) and ride height /suspension changes do NOT affect it... it does work with different size rims and slicks..

I am just about to start playing with the gearing so will let you know how tolerant it is with that as well...

It is a great system, it should NOT be used by anyone as a fail safe "ill never lose control" system.. i think that Ducati should be applauded for bringing this system to the street, not bagged because every wanna be boy racer can't adjust it to exactly how he wants...
Glad you have had much success with the system. Its great when Ducati makes something work! ;)

Ohh and the 16.5" wheels and Dunlop tires, don't even fit on the 1098R without putting the eccentric all the way the back or using the extended swing arm. The swing arm is VERY short on the 848/1098.



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Based on what has been posted so far here is what I believe.

1. Ride height is also affected by sag and even chain adjusments so I doubt the system is that sensitive to not tolerate changes and or adapt for them.
I have adjusted all 3 settings on my 1198S with no ill effects and DTC still works just fine. Note the owners manual for the 1198S states that ride height is adjustable to suite the riders need but warns it has been set to what Ducati feels is a optimal setting.

2. Changing tires brand and profile will most likely have a effect on the system as stated in the DTC info previously posted. That being said if different tires are used that have similar shoulders and profiles to the Super Corses then the system will (MOST LIKELY) still work fine but may be more or less sensitive. I highly doubt the corporate lawers would allow a system to be sold to the general public knowing that someone is going to change tire brands and profiles without some sort of tolerance built into the system.

I would think the biggest effect that would screw up the system from a tire change would be mixing tire brands between front and rear, not good even on a bike without DTC.

3. DTC is here to stay and will only get more and more sophisticated as new bikes come out each year. DTC is a benefit regardless of what the nay sayers say, but like others have said it cannot defy the laws of physics.

4. I would not be surprised if Ducati does not come out with a way to place the DTC in a learning mode for different tire profiles where after certain criteria are met it learns the new profile. This would be the same as some of the tire pressure monitoring systems on cars that need to be initialized after a tire change or tire pressure change.

Les
 

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Glad you have had much success with the system. Its great when Ducati makes something work! ;)

Ohh and the 16.5" wheels and Dunlop tires, don't even fit on the 1098R without putting the eccentric all the way the back or using the extended swing arm. The swing arm is VERY short on the 848/1098.
maybe not 16.5" dunlops but remember this?????????

Just tested DTC on 1198s with 16.5" wheels
Just off the track with my 1198s with 16.5: wheels on Pirellis. Marchesini magnesium wheels, oem 330mm rotor, Brembo HP calipers. All 8 traction control levels worked properly just as on oem wheels+tires...actually it worked fantasticly with the grip of the 16.5's combined with full tration control , i was in hog heaven......this thing is a beast....
 

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On the dash board, you can type in the exact measurement of your tire and be done with it. Wanna know the reason why Ducati doesn't provide that feature?
Because there is no reason to.

Any reasonable system would be able to determine tire diameter automatically, based on the long term relative outputs of the wheel sensors.

Tom
 
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