Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum banner
  • Hey Everyone! Enter your bike HERE to be a part of this months Bike of the Month Challenge!

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was just watching this from Dave Moss.
Do any of you actually feel this difference between the different types of tires? I Had 3 different types of tires on my last bike (not sporty) but i did push them.
I don't remember ever feeling this much of a difference.
I am sure you have read many of my questions... i am researching my next purchase. i have thought about Rossi? III's and Angel GT's....
How good/fast/experienced will I need to be before I try something completely different to know what truly suits me, and not the factory?

PS If you get tired of the questions online... Just move to GA and i will ask them in person all Summer till i know the next level of questions to ask ;)

Thanks in advance Rex

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,500 Posts
I am running and liking Pirelli Angel GT2's on my Monster.
I am sort of old and not doing track days and not very fast.
YMMV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
501 Posts
On the track, you'd feel much more nuances of tires than on the road. I no longer ride on the track (the last time I raced was more than 30 years ago!), and I'm not all that familiar with today's tires. Having said that, when I had 899, I had such a hard time with stock Pirelli. It felt really hard, and part because of my weight, I always felt that I can't get enough heat into it during the casually spirited riding. I switched to Michelin Power RS, and the difference was night and day. But then, that's like two completely different characters of tires, it's like comparing sushi and fish and chips, probably.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I don't know, So I apologize if this is stupid...
Are both of those different because they were made for different types of rides? Like sport vs Touring?
Or
Because their approach to the same issue was different?
This year (at the VERY least) I will not out drive whatever is fitted... But I want to know if I should vary my selection widely (Early) to sort of find the manufacturer that builds tire the way I like them...
Not looking for the Highest abstract tire ability...

Rex
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,499 Posts
Tires are a very personal preference and you'll not glean much from any of us that you'll be able to use. You have to experience what you want in a tire and what is undesirable to YOU.

What I like or prefer, is completely different in feel to another rider. IE, I prefer Michelin these days. There was a time where I wouldn't ride them.

What I learned was, feel and feedback are what I value most. Grip....sure, but that really boils down to feel and feedback. If it feels like there isn't any grip, there probably isn't.

The 2 tires mentioned, Pirelli and Michelin are similar in intended use. No factory is fitting Power RSs to a production bike off the show room floor though. The stock Pirellis are less expensive so they get fit due to the volume of production. There are other Pirellis that are closer to the Power RS in performance though, and would be a better comparison.

Are you going to notice that difference?.....maybe, maybe not. Like I wrote to begin with, tires are a very personal choice. What works for one, does not necessarily translate to what will work for another. I too would prefer the Michelin Power RSs over the stock Pirellis but that doesn't mean that you will.....sean
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,974 Posts
I'd be amazed if you could feel a difference in carcass stiffness unless the tires were under inflated. I can feel a difference in profile. I also can feel the difference in wet grip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,334 Posts
Iwannaduc is spot on, but i'll add that i'm the complete opposite, i can't get on with Michelins, at all, and i've persisted for years here and there and the last ones i actually liked were Hi Sports..... how long ago is that!?
I love Pirellis, i'm very front endy in my riding style and tend to push the front a lot, Rosso Corsa are awesome for me, they have a reasonably round profile, different compounds from centre to edge and provide great feel, great feedback and grip but for me, i can tell the difference by about 4psi on the front, the rear i don't notice much difference until there's about 8 to 10 psi difference.

The point i'm trying to make is that we all like different things, and brand is one thing, but profile, compound, pressure can all effect how that brand feels, so one pirelli may not feel anything like another.

My advice would be to decide what type of rider you are, tourer, commuter, track day rider, fast sports rider etc. and choose a tyre that fits the type of riding you do, you wouldn't do track days on an AngelGT, just as you wouldn't commute on Supercorsas....
Whatever type of rider you decide you are look at your choices based on the manufacturers recommendations, a good start is to go with the brand you're riding on now, in the recommended type of tyre because it's closest to what you know, and start with recommended pressures front and rear.

There's lots of talk about Dunlop having firmer sidewalls, pirelli being more supple etc but i have a bike on Dunlop Q4's and three others on Pirellis of various types, stuffed if i can tell that my Dunlops are stiffer, and that's on the track or road, i know i'm slow, and i'm probably very short on talent but the way some talk about it it should be obvious to everyone. well, i can say it's not, so don't worry if you don't notice, i suspect there's an awful lot who say they do but really don't or they're just agreeing with the consensus, or, they're very sensitive/talented.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
501 Posts
I don't know, So I apologize if this is stupid...
Are both of those different because they were made for different types of rides? Like sport vs Touring?
Or
Because their approach to the same issue was different?
This year (at the VERY least) I will not out drive whatever is fitted... But I want to know if I should vary my selection widely (Early) to sort of find the manufacturer that builds tire the way I like them...
Not looking for the Highest abstract tire ability...

Rex
When I was looking for replacement tires, I asked my old mechanic (he's old) who still tracks Ducatis. He said 899's stock Pirelli works great on the track, and mentioned Michelin Power RS is probably more catered toward street riding, so I took his words for it. And I found it to be very different from Pirelli. It felt much consistent through different condition, for instance, Pirelli felt very hard and wooden in 42 degree weather, or in the rain. When I didn't feel that much differences was on a nice summer day and I'd been riding for while, so I concluded that stock Pirelli worked better at the upper end, and Michelin was better at the lower end. And because I use my bike for short (15-20 minutes) commuting, Michelin was better for me. And because I'm a creature of habit, I have Power RS on my 900SS currently.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
129 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
good stuff guys.
When I replace them will Depend on the condition the tires are in when I purchase. I know I will ride when it's cold. And while I "may" not leave in the rain... I am sure I will ride in the rain. (I actually sorta like to ride in rain a little except for how dirty the bike gets) I have read and watched a lot. I think I am leaning towards the Angel GT's. because they should warm up easier than the Rossi's and others... Plus. Pirelli. But I was watching Ryan F9 (I like his reviews) and he mentioned some others too.

While I cant say I felt the difference in compound or sidewall in the past. I could easily feel the difference in the shape between them.

Keep the opinions coming. It certainly helps

Rex
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,375 Posts
I think most, if not all of the street tires are designed to work good when cold or warm, or they’d be compromising most riders for the sake of a few. They need to feel good right away, offer consistent traction and stability. One good cold stop may be all you get. What percentage off street riders get their tires warmed up when they ride ? Certain mountain areas, the rest of us get a few curvy roads. Predictable handling and braking sells a lot of tires, because most riders aren’t pushing it near as hard as they think they are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Iwannaduc is spot on, but i'll add that i'm the complete opposite, i can't get on with Michelins, at all, and i've persisted for years here and there and the last ones i actually liked were Hi Sports..... how long ago is that!?
I love Pirellis, i'm very front endy in my riding style and tend to push the front a lot, Rosso Corsa are awesome for me, they have a reasonably round profile, different compounds from centre to edge and provide great feel, great feedback and grip but for me, i can tell the difference by about 4psi on the front, the rear i don't notice much difference until there's about 8 to 10 psi difference.

The point i'm trying to make is that we all like different things, and brand is one thing, but profile, compound, pressure can all effect how that brand feels, so one pirelli may not feel anything like another.

My advice would be to decide what type of rider you are, tourer, commuter, track day rider, fast sports rider etc. and choose a tyre that fits the type of riding you do, you wouldn't do track days on an AngelGT, just as you wouldn't commute on Supercorsas....
Whatever type of rider you decide you are look at your choices based on the manufacturers recommendations, a good start is to go with the brand you're riding on now, in the recommended type of tyre because it's closest to what you know, and start with recommended pressures front and rear.

There's lots of talk about Dunlop having firmer sidewalls, pirelli being more supple etc but i have a bike on Dunlop Q4's and three others on Pirellis of various types, stuffed if i can tell that my Dunlops are stiffer, and that's on the track or road, i know i'm slow, and i'm probably very short on talent but the way some talk about it it should be obvious to everyone. well, i can say it's not, so don't worry if you don't notice, i suspect there's an awful lot who say they do but really don't or they're just agreeing with the consensus, or, they're very sensitive/talented.
Concerning Pirelli Rosso Corsa III, you talked about tire pressure, so I have a question for you. The last 10 years I've been running Avon tires and most recently the 3-D model. I found the Avon tires to be extremely stable at all times except two or three times in the life of the tire where the backend would slide a little bit unexpectedly. Avon's also handled road anomalies very, very well, unlike Michelin Pilot's I replaced which would freak out at the slightest bump in the road. The tire pressure I was running on the Avon's has always been 39 pounds in the front and 41 lbs or 42 lbs for the rear tires. This tended to make the tires are extremely accurate and I could put the bike exactly where I wanted at all times. I sold my Ducati ST4 and replaced it with a newer ST3. I'm now running the the Rosso Corsa III. I called Pirelli to ask about tire pressure and their answer was whatever the manufacturer of the bike recommends. I called my Ducati mechanic and he suggested 32 lbs front and 32 lbs back with the Pirelli's. With this setting I'm not getting as accurate steering as I was with the Avon's. My question is: what kind of tire tire pressure have you found allows on road aggressive riding, not on track, and has given you confidence and hopefully accuracy on your Rosso Corsa? Just a note, my Ducati mechanic says the Rosso Corsa are steelbelted where the Avon's are not, and this accounts for the Avon's running at such high pressure where the Rosso Corsa's have pressure restrictions because of the still belting. Any thoughts?

'07 Ducati ST3 ABS 28,000
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,334 Posts
Concerning Pirelli Rosso Corsa III, you talked about tire pressure, so I have a question for you. The last 10 years I've been running Avon tires and most recently the 3-D model. I found the Avon tires to be extremely stable at all times except two or three times in the life of the tire where the backend would slide a little bit unexpectedly. Avon's also handled road anomalies very, very well, unlike Michelin Pilot's I replaced which would freak out at the slightest bump in the road. The tire pressure I was running on the Avon's has always been 39 pounds in the front and 41 lbs or 42 lbs for the rear tires. This tended to make the tires are extremely accurate and I could put the bike exactly where I wanted at all times. I sold my Ducati ST4 and replaced it with a newer ST3. I'm now running the the Rosso Corsa III. I called Pirelli to ask about tire pressure and their answer was whatever the manufacturer of the bike recommends. I called my Ducati mechanic and he suggested 32 lbs front and 32 lbs back with the Pirelli's. With this setting I'm not getting as accurate steering as I was with the Avon's. My question is: what kind of tire tire pressure have you found allows on road aggressive riding, not on track, and has given you confidence and hopefully accuracy on your Rosso Corsa? Just a note, my Ducati mechanic says the Rosso Corsa are steelbelted where the Avon's are not, and this accounts for the Avon's running at such high pressure where the Rosso Corsa's have pressure restrictions because of the still belting. Any thoughts?

'07 Ducati ST3 ABS 28,000
No clue about the construction or how that would affect handling with different pressures....

I have a Diavel that has the RossoIII on the back and the Rosso CorsaII on ihe front, i run them at 36 for the front and 40 for the rear, same as when i ran the previous generation of Rosso, any lower on and on the front and i got uneven wear from heavy braking and a squared off rear.
Those pressures give good life and still plenty of grip, i'm in Australia though and it doesn't get too cold here.

I run the same pressures on my R nine T which has Continental TKC80 knobbies and they're a cross ply tyre, no issues at all on it either.
My 1098R has supercorsas but i run them lower, not sure why but it feels very skatey at anything higher than 32 F&R
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
A general topic I care a bit about, and bothered to write up related aspects in some detail, see https://www.hunterdog.org.au/DiscussionBoard/index.php/topic,1101.msg3009.html#msg3009

The short story of which is Angel GT's are just fine for the track, but the naysayer above doesn't know to bump them up 5psi if you are a 'spirited rider' as they will overheat and go all slippery, and the extra psi keeps them solidly planted. I use 37F / 41R on track, or 33F / 36R solo, and 38F / 45R pillion.

If I use other so-called softer tyres, which I used to on the front 'for safety', they only wear out faster with no evident increased grip when it matters, and take more effort to become comfortable. If I had more than 125HP pushing them maybe there is a case to look at others, but I am yet to be disappointed by the Angel GT's and I sure have given them plenty of opportunities to let me down, but they don't!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
I commute year round about 33K miles. And I go through several sets of tires a year. I don't consider myself a great rider or fast but I can definitely tell the difference of every tire brand or type I've tried. I've always been a bit picky and on my vehicles and I can tell if the tires are low and which one.
One a motorcycle I find it easier to tell when a tire is a little low and other differences.
I'm not implying I can take full advantage of every ounce of grip that my tires have.

In the wet it's very obvious which ones work better. And by better I mean which ones I like better.
I ride offroad or dirt bikes and enduros. I'll start with the tires at about 25 psi at home and then ride to the trails.
Once to the dirt I'll let out over half of that pressure and usually not put more in until I'm home.
The last few miles on the street with the lower pressures is always interesting and I take it easy and limit my speed. If I have a chance to fill the knobbies up I will but most of the time I'll just deal with the under-inflated tires.

Tires, like a lot of motorcycling, are very subjective.
When someone tells me, or I read, that they got many more or way less miles than I have experienced, I know they don't ride like me and their opinions, about tires, will probably not be that useful to me.
I'm not saying they are wrong but we definitely have different riding styles or usage. It's always interesting when someone has an opinion well off of what I've found to be true in my riding.

On road, I like good mileage but I don't compromise grip for a few more miles.
I have tried sport type of tires but I think sport touring tires are usually better in almost every condition I ride in. Plus they last longer.
It doesn't rain much where I live but there are many times where water, dirt and gravel will come into my riding area and that's when I trust sport touring tires over pure sport tires.

I found sport tires to work better in a smaller range of environment like on tracks. I haven't ridden on a track in a long time and my experience with modern super grippy tires has been on a lightweight SM. I can slide them but I usually don't ride to the point of having to back it in. I don't use all of the grip that they have and so I've gone back to the sport catagory and like the better wear characteristics and how they break away.

I think you might be lucky in that you aren't bothered by some of the subtle differences between tires. I have my favorites but I also like to try new tires. If I don't like them I know they will only be on for a couple months. If I think they are dangerous I'll take them off. And I have several times.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Iwannaduc

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Try to remember that the manufacturer is way more knowledgeable than we are. This is why so many bikes are ruined by modifications. For instance, the Multistrada has Scorpion Trails (or Trail II's), which were specifically designed by Pirelli for that particular bike. No other tire manufacturer accepted the challenge to create the tire for that revolutionary bike, the four-bikes-in-one concept. Its a fantastic tire, with over a decade now of R&D, which performs to Ducati standards in all four 'categories', or riding modes/terrain. Yet, some people just hate them, because they think they can feel things, or because they're biased by marketing, or because they are just the stock tire so it must not be as good as an aftermarket tire. Most aftermarket stuff isn't good, is a waste of money two-fold (purchase price+excessive depreciation), looks bad, sounds bad, performs badly, and has negative effects on the real performance, efficiency, and reliability of the machine.

I tend to prefer a factory tire or a factory-spec derivative, because the machine itself is typically developed in conjunction with that tire and its characteristics and tendencies.

Scorpion Trails on my Hyperstrada were great. Shinko 705's were horrible, a regrettable decision. Scorpion Rosso III's are now standard on the Hyper. I have them on my HS and they are fantastic for my current riding style, consistent high rev hard tarmac pounding.

Trust the designer, they know best!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
177 Posts
Try to remember that the manufacturer is way more knowledgeable than we are. This is why so many bikes are ruined by modifications. For instance, the Multistrada has Scorpion Trails (or Trail II's), which were specifically designed by Pirelli for that particular bike. No other tire manufacturer accepted the challenge to create the tire for that revolutionary bike, the four-bikes-in-one concept. Its a fantastic tire, with over a decade now of R&D, which performs to Ducati standards in all four 'categories', or riding modes/terrain. Yet, some people just hate them, because they think they can feel things, or because they're biased by marketing, or because they are just the stock tire so it must not be as good as an aftermarket tire. Most aftermarket stuff isn't good, is a waste of money two-fold (purchase price+excessive depreciation), looks bad, sounds bad, performs badly, and has negative effects on the real performance, efficiency, and reliability of the machine.

I tend to prefer a factory tire or a factory-spec derivative, because the machine itself is typically developed in conjunction with that tire and its characteristics and tendencies.

Scorpion Trails on my Hyperstrada were great. Shinko 705's were horrible, a regrettable decision. Scorpion Rosso III's are now standard on the Hyper. I have them on my HS and they are fantastic for my current riding style, consistent high rev hard tarmac pounding.

Trust the designer, they know best!
That’s not how tires work in the automotive world. Auto manufacturers purchase tires based on price, and tire manufacturers will produce special OEM tires that are not the same as retail tires, usually inferior.

I would guess that Ducati historically fitted Pirellis as they were both Italian companies. Now that neither is an Italian company, that decision may be based solely on existing contracts, price, or performance. But I wouldn’t agree that OEM is always the best product. Everything is built to a price point, and tires are an obvious place to save money. I’m not saying the Pirellis are good or bad, just that there may be better out there.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
106 Posts
I just stumbled on this thread, sorry to bump older conversations. First thanks to OP for posting that video by DM. Great information to track your tire wear and understand what it means. As for tire selections/preferences the previous posts pretty much sum up my thoughts as well. When I was up for new shoes I spent some time online reading reviews but there was so much conflicting information. I decided to rely on my local MC tire shop (8 Ball MC Tires) for suggestions. They asked my riding style (50/50 highway and spirited canyon) and showed me a couple examples in the shop. They seemed like a quality group and since they do this for a living I went with their suggestion for Angel GT II. Now 5k miles in and very pleased.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
Given we are reviving old threads, and this one is quite a useful one for many, I am going to chuck another 2c worth in. We are just back from a 5,102km lap of Tasmania and southern Australia with brand new Angel GT 2's on. And I have tyre pressure monitors so get to see live pressures, very fascinating to see what REALLY happens. Whilst there was a lot of tooling along on country roads, there were plenty of opportunities to get fully stuck up it, which my wife is kind enough to let me ride it like I stole it ("just lay off the brakes willya", what a woman!). And I got to leave her behind for a circle ride around some twisty gorges one day, streuth this 18yo bike is a beauty!

Anyway, the front tyre would be about 1/3 worn out and the back is only just past the half way point. Amazing. I have had the suspension tricked up for overloading (Shock Treatment, Wallacia, NSW), which is what about 240kg of passengers, gear, panniers and a chockers 56l topbox (all hers!) is. Mostly dry riding, mild to warm temps except one cold day. I have blown a lot of tyres to the weeds over the years and am yet to see performance and now wear life like Pirelli have achieved with their latest Angel. The regular GT would have had nothing left at the rear and 3/4 gone on the front by now, yet here we are with a roughly 40% improvement in life with no detectable loss of performance, an increase really.

I say an increase because that solo day I got on the tyre corner quite a lot and can usually spin it up a little to start a controlled drift, but not happening with this tyre. Could be me losing my touch, or the tyre, but definitely confidence inspiring. For me, I can't see there would be a better tyre out there.

Re the vid, it is an important note that the ST4S has lower friction forks and you get a heck of a lot of info through them that doesn't happen with lesser grade systems. Very noticeable, and I typically feel road issues before I see them and I suspect a lot more important than sidewall flexibility the vid mentions, whatever exactly that is really all about in that sea of non-Ducati shyte Dave needs to deal with. I also find steel carcasses a life-saver when over-enthusiasm has kicked in and you are looking at steel stripes. You can get 100's of km if gentle on them, but canvas will blow out in 50. An issue with lower mileage tyres of old, but has let me get safely home from far-distant rallies in the past. (Angels are steel).

Re pressure, just riding the bike with pillion adds about 2psi front and 5 psi rear. Going hard adds another 3-4 front and only about 2 rear. So we are moving 6-7 psi from static. Ambient temp is worth about 4psi in range 10 to 25 deg C. So now there is a 10psi range. Do you know what YOU are riding on when forming opinions? Turns out to be important! I had been travelling along some decent sweepers for a while, rear around 45 and front 38. Both a bit low because I set them in a warmer ambient. We stopped for lunch and I put another 5psi in the rear. In service it was seeing 51 or 52, front at 39 as road got a bit twistier. It was a very noticeable 'tightening up' of the ride, albeit in juggernaut configuration but being given a serious wriggle along. It felt fine how it was, but I would pay good money to have this kind of performance improvement I didn't know I was missing / needed. So just pointing out, it is not only about tyre choices here...

Edit: full vids are here: Tires Archives - Dave Moss Tuning - I think I will watch a few...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
On the street it’s hard to tell because you’re generally replacing a worn tire with a new one. Even if it’s the exact same tire it’ll feel a lot different. I always laugh when someone posts something like, “I replaced my Demon Twisty Slayers with Attack Pavement Grippers, and the Grippers are sooooo much better!!!!” A new set a Slayers would have been a big improvement too. So while I’m sure there are noticeable differences it’s hard for the average guy to figure out what’s what.
I do remember switching from Michelin to Pirelli race tires (this was 20 years ago) and that was a big difference. Much softer carcass on the Pirellis, more predictable sliding, easier to go fast on, at least for me. The Michelin’s were more stable in general, especially under braking.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top