[draganc]

Fellas!

Who has used cryogenic treatment on their engine build and on what parts (case, transmission, piston or all)?

Before or after any machine work?

What’s your experience and conclusion?

Thanks!




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[SP3]

We tried it on a set of bevel gears in the (Lola/Hewland) transaxles on the Indycars at Rahal. But, it was only one set. We finally lifed them out at 3.5k miles which is over 55% longer than we usually left them in regardless of what they looked like or measured. Replacing them was a two guys, torches, fans, dial indicators, and about 5 hours kind of job. And $4k a set (maybe $6K?) if I recall correctly. The cryo was done to finished sets straight from Lola. This was in '01 or '02. They've served as paperweights ever since.

 

[DuckMan]

Damn those are gorgeous.


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[draganc]

We tried it on a set of bevel gears in the (Lola/Hewland) transaxles on the Indycars at Rahal. But, it was only one set. We finally lifed them out at 3.5k miles which is over 55% longer than we usually left them in regardless of what they looked like or measured. Replacing them was a two guys, torches, fans, dial indicators, and about 5 hours kind of job. And $4k a set (maybe $6K?) if I recall correctly. The cryo was done to finished sets straight from Lola. This was in '01 or '02. They've served as paperweights ever since.

Thanks a bunch for the detailed feedback!!



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[Monster4Lee]

We finally lifed them out at 3.5k miles which is over 55% longer than we usually left them in

Sounds like the treatment was it.
Depending on the cost I guess.

 

[SP3]

We didn't do another set, unfortunately, to prove it out fully. Most teams went with Hewland's recommended 2k mile lifespan. Early on, you might only get 1K miles. They had to be set up perfectly in the middle of the spec range and then broken in just so. That would get you to 2k miles. Because of the amount of time it took to install another set, nobody really wanted to take a chance on pushing them.

The set I have (the cryo'ed ones) started in a racecar, then into the test car, back to the racecars, and back to the test car before we called 'time'. I don't recall ever trying cryo on other parts but dog rings would have been interesting test subjects.

 

[draganc]

IRCC, the place that I have found in MA charges around $350 for a complete V2 type engine. I will definitely give it a try on my next build.

Apparently a lot of NESCAR engine builder are doing it and are gaining up to 2% HP.

My aim would be the longevity of the parts.


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[DuckMan]

I’ve wondered about this cryogenic treatment stuff for a while. I see it used all the time in various adds flaunting how special it is. I have no idea if it really works.

I totally believe SP3’s experience and is in fact the first real experience I’ve ever heard off.

Things I’ve bought that were cryo treated were brake rotors and vacuum tubes for my stereo. I’m guessing it prolly worked better on the brake rotors but my stereo sounds damn good.


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[davy.j]

These days Superfinishing seems to be the go.
Nova racing in the UK are leaders in this field.

 

[Monster4Lee]

Vacuum tubes. Now there is some cutting edge technology.

 

[miolta]

Yep, Cryo rules. I know at least one good use for it.

Ice beer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SP3]

Apparently a lot of NESCAR engine builder are doing it and are gaining up to 2% HP.

These days Superfinishing seems to be the go.

I haven't kept up on cryo over the years I've been out of racing. I have a cursory knowledge of superfinishing. My semi-educated guess is that claims of X increase in power/torque are being a little disingenuous on the part of the cryo folks. While the surface of any parts treated will change, I can't see how just the cryogenic process will make the surface smoother such that a claim of 2% can be achieved.

Superfinishing, on the other hand, could. That's its whole point. Making load-bearing surfaces as smooth as possible to lower friction. In very (very) basic terms, cyro is to make things stronger/more durable and superfinishing is for friction reduction.

Now, if there's a white paper on cryo also reducing friction, I'd love to read it. Cuz I'm a geek that way. I'd also like to read any such papers on superfinishing vs. TiCN vs. DLC vs. ??? Wish my dad was still around. That's what he spent 4+ decades working on (thin film deposition).

 

[draganc]

Cryo Treatment / Nitrogen / Materials / Metals / Wear Resistance

A leading resource for research and information in cryogenic treatment - the use of extremely cold temperatures to improve the properties of materials.

cryogenictreatmentdatabase.org

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[draganc]

Per Wikipedia:

“... Some of the benefits of cryogenic treatment include longer part life, less failure due to cracking, improved thermal properties, better electrical properties including less electrical resistance, >>reduced coefficient of friction




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[belter]

We didn't do another set, unfortunately, to prove it out fully. Most teams went with Hewland's recommended 2k mile lifespan. Early on, you might only get 1K miles. They had to be set up perfectly in the middle of the spec range and then broken in just so. That would get you to 2k miles. Because of the amount of time it took to install another set, nobody really wanted to take a chance on pushing them.

The set I have (the cryo'ed ones) started in a racecar, then into the test car, back to the racecars, and back to the test car before we called 'time'. I don't recall ever trying cryo on other parts but dog rings would have been interesting test subjects.

was the replacement cost of a complete unit if you did run them too long excessive (within the realms of "it's racing, of course it's excessive") compared to the servicing every 2k cost.

 

[Sherpa23F]

I superfinished all of the internals for my 916SPS which I use as one of my track bikes. I thought it made sense at the time and after running the bike for a couple of years, I would do it again. It makes 137hp at the rear wheel on the Boulder Motorsports dyno, for reference. Not saying that all (or any?) came from superfinishing as I really did it for durability but that's what that motor makes.

 

[ducvet]

Hard to say.

A local shop does cryo treat new chain saws and claims longer life as a result. I do not use one enough to be a tester but a friend who works for a large tree trimming company claims it does. We tried cryo treating brake rotors when we had customers ruining them in stop and go traffic, it helped some but not enough to continue.

On super polish I put a 748/853 together last winter with internals superpolished and the biggest gain I saw was that the engine was easier to assemble as every surface was smooth. power gain? we also balanced and lightened parts which should not change a dyno run but certainly can be felt seat of the pants. After runs were changed very little so gains of more power will depend on how bad they were before, this motor had been built a few years prior. Nice to look at and feel but I would not expect more than a 2% gain for the process,from what I saw. When racing on the dyno or in the real world every bit counts so small gains matter, often those small gains will also cost the most.

 

[Rex Coil 7]

Not that I'd go with it for my little 900CR putt putt, but out of curiousity how is this "super finish" done? Manual? CNC Automated somehow? Reminds me of the 1980s when that process of using a sortof hydraulic press to force fine abrasive media through various things to create a super fine polished surface was all the rage (can't recall the name of the process just now ... it'll come to me once the caffeine kicks in).

... When racing on the dyno or in the real world every bit counts so small gains matter, often those small gains will also cost the most.

Goes back to that diminishing returns curve, dunnit.

 

[ducvet]

Extrude honing?

 

[Rex Coil 7]

Extrude honing?

Yes! I just logged back in to post it ... I was going back to bed when it popped back into my head. It used to be used to polish combustion chambers/ports in 4 stroke heads, polish ports in 2 stroke barrels, and many other things where manual polishing was typically done. I remember it was even used by pro Jet Ski competitors to polish the impeller housings of the drive jet. One negative I recall was if a given 4 stroke cylinder head didn't have much material around the ports in the casting the abrasive media paste could actually perforate the casting and wreck the head (or whatever item was being honed). May be why the process seemed to fall out of favor as the 90s rolled in.

It did far more than just ~polishing~ .. it would put a fantastic knife edge on port bridges and also sortof put a "natural" flow curve in ports.

So anyhow, how is this Super Polish procedure done that's being discussed in this thread?