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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've already had a search of this forum regarding my topic and there are lots of threads returned. So much reading I could be here forever (no bad thing), but instead I'll ask the lazyweb......

Has anyone done a comparison of racing camshafts for the 1000DS engine?

So far I've found 4 different types, which I then refound all conveniently on the Ducati Kaemna website.

NCR Cams - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=2397

Vee Two Cams - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=1796

Kaemna's Own? - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=2190

Pure Tec - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=2043

The NCR Cams have a tech sheet - http://www.kaemna.de/pic/katalog/ncr300000timing.pdf

Shows inlet and exhaust lift max of 13.1mm

The Vee Two cams also have a tech sheet - http://www.kaemna.de/pic/katalog/camtimingv203300.pdf

Shows inlet lift of 13mm and exhaust of 11.5mm

Anyone have any experience with any of these cams in a 1000DS engine? Or indeed any other recommendations or preferences?

I'm obviously looking for a performance improvement, but reliability is also very important as the bike is raced in 6-hour events. So far we've completed two this season. So, we don't need the engine going bang for the sake of an extra 5hp.
 

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I've already had a search of this forum regarding my topic and there are lots of threads returned. So much reading I could be here forever (no bad thing), but instead I'll ask the lazyweb......

Has anyone done a comparison of racing camshafts for the 1000DS engine?

So far I've found 4 different types, which I then refound all conveniently on the Ducati Kaemna website.

NCR Cams - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=2397

Vee Two Cams - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=1796

Kaemna's Own? - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=2190

Pure Tec - http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=artikel&artikel=2043

The NCR Cams have a tech sheet - http://www.kaemna.de/pic/katalog/ncr300000timing.pdf

Shows inlet and exhaust lift max of 13.1mm

The Vee Two cams also have a tech sheet - http://www.kaemna.de/pic/katalog/camtimingv203300.pdf

Shows inlet lift of 13mm and exhaust of 11.5mm

Anyone have any experience with any of these cams in a 1000DS engine? Or indeed any other recommendations or preferences?

I'm obviously looking for a performance improvement, but reliability is also very important as the bike is raced in 6-hour events. So far we've completed two this season. So, we don't need the engine going bang for the sake of an extra 5hp.
I have the ducati performance cams, good performance improvement. AsI understand these have the same "profile" as the Vee Two cams. No issues so far.
 

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it says "original ducati" in the add. :)

pure tec is Kämnas homebrand actually.


Or indeed any other recommendations or preferences?
there is a nice two piece spreadable camshaft
solution at hand in germany too, but i am too
tired to post the link for the 5th. time, and
haven't spoken to the builder in person yet,
but it seems to be very well machined.

anyway, go with any of those you have mentioned,
as i will do next winter hopefully. A proper port
and valve seat job is essential with that in my opinion.

cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The V2 tech sheet from the Kaemna website shows 28 deg Inlet opening and 73 deg inlet closing. Which, by my calculations, gives 281 deg of crank rotation.

For the NCR cams, again using the sheet from Kaemna, we have inlet 32 deg opening and 80 deg closed, giving 293 deg crank rotation.

With the additional crank rotation (Add opening and closing degrees together, then add another 180 degrees to calculate) AND higher lift, it would seem that the NCR cams are the better option.

The NCR cams are more expensive than the V2 cams, but probably only by a couple of hundred Euros. For the additional benefit, perhaps worth it.

I also know there are pre-2006 and post-2006 cam differences in the 1000DS engines. Mine is a pre-2006 engine, so I'm hoping those numbers all hold true for both types.
 

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I have the (modified) post 2006 cams in my 2003 SSie. Profile is same.

The post 2006 (hypermotard) DP cams used to be a lot cheaper than the pre 2006 DP cams but I think price is more or less the same.
 

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AFAIK, the difference between pre-2006 and post-2006 cams is the length of the cams and how they sit on the cylinder head.

Can somebody confirm?
 

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The V2 tech sheet from the Kaemna website shows 28 deg Inlet opening and 73 deg inlet closing. Which, by my calculations, gives 281 deg of crank rotation.

For the NCR cams, again using the sheet from Kaemna, we have inlet 32 deg opening and 80 deg closed, giving 293 deg crank rotation.

With the additional crank rotation (Add opening and closing degrees together, then add another 180 degrees to calculate) AND higher lift, it would seem that the NCR cams are the better option.

Not always true. What power characteristics are you looking for? The added duration may lead to issues you may not want, such as less bottom end with no appreciable top end gain, though it may "feel" like it is faster. The 2V motors do not have the volumetric efficiency to allow the high duration cams to do their job(ergo: high rpm power). You figure the bike will only(safely) spin up to 9000 rpms. Finding the right cams for the characteristics of the motor will make the motor last longer, giving you and your wallet more joy.

Also, with out hi-comp pistons with deep reliefs, you will have a problem with all of them, unless you change you timing, but I'm guessing you have already addressed that.

With the large valves, I would recommend a high lift, short duration cam. This will give you more usable power across the whole power band. A slight increase in duration won't be a bad thing, however too much could prove to be a problem.

This leads to another question; what exhaust are you using? Those cams will react differently, based on your exhaust selection. The high lift short duration cams respond better with a larger diameter exhaust, due to the exhaust note produced. Think of it this way, say your exhaust is putting out a sports ball(baseball/basketball). One cam(high lift, short duration) will make your bike exhaust a basketball, what size exhaust will work better? Now if you have a larger duration cam, think of it putting out five baseballs in a row instead. The basketball exhaust would not work well this type as it would make the baseballs get out of order and get in each other's way(creating the wrong note), resulting in less velocity/less power.

I know this is winded and please don't take offense to my analogy(just had four cups of coffee), but I wouldn't want to see you double spend for one goal. Power is the result of TQ/rpms, and in order to work the motor must be efficient. Just putting parts together will not make it better. It is the sum of all proper parts, and they must work well together.

My guess is the Kaemna cams are for highly modified motors that may need to be refreshed/rebuilt often.
 

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AFAIK, the difference between pre-2006 and post-2006 cams is the length of the cams and how they sit on the cylinder head.

Can somebody confirm?
IIRC, it is the amount of bearings placed in the heads too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I have the (modified) post 2006 cams in my 2003 SSie. Profile is same.

The post 2006 (hypermotard) DP cams used to be a lot cheaper than the pre 2006 DP cams but I think price is more or less the same.
Thanks for the information.

Two questions:

1. Do you have any figures regarding the performance improvement the DP cams gave? Did you make this mod in isolation, or a lot of other things at the same time?

2. Have you had any reliability issues with the engine since using these cams? I'm racing endurance, mostly 6 hour races, so obviously reliability is important to me, which is why I'm wondering now whether the Pure Tec Kaemna home brand road/race cams might be a safer option. Any thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My guess is the Kaemna cams are for highly modified motors that may need to be refreshed/rebuilt often.
No offence taken with your analogy. The more info I have on this the better, as I'm still learning.

The exhaust the bike has at the moment is standard headers with DP end cans. So, 40mm I believe. I am also shopping around for an aftermarket exhaust, but will most likely have to go down the custom route.

The Kaemna cams are said to be for road/race, so might be the safest in terms of engine longevity.
 

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IIRC, it is the amount of bearings placed in the heads too.
On the 1000/1100ds, the cams use plain bearings (as opposed to ball bearings in the other air cooled engines). I didn't know they changed the total number of bearings after 2006... :think::think:

...most likely have to go down the custom route...
This is the only way of getting good results.

The Kaemna cams are said to be for road/race, so might be the safest in terms of engine longevity.
Don't base your decision only on what each cam is called. Keep looking for their actual characteristics so you can do as little experimenting as possible (good for your pocket :D)
 

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Thanks for the information.

Two questions:

1. Do you have any figures regarding the performance improvement the DP cams gave? Did you make this mod in isolation, or a lot of other things at the same time?

2. Have you had any reliability issues with the engine since using these cams? I'm racing endurance, mostly 6 hour races, so obviously reliability is important to me, which is why I'm wondering now whether the Pure Tec Kaemna home brand road/race cams might be a safer option. Any thoughts?
1. Here's the runs before and after cam installation. Figures are rear wheel.



Before is already with ported heads, custom exhaust, open airbox, PCIII.

After is with cam installation and increased compression, stock pistons. Also seperate PCIII maps for vertical and horizontal cilinders.

2. No reliability issues. I use the bike for trackdays and racing. The more agressive the cams, the more critical valve checking and adjustment becomes I think.

When I talk to tuners with some experience they do recommend the NCR cams but I never asked what the advantage is.
 
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