[Mospeada]

Stemming from this original thread (which I'm not going to update because the thread got off subject real quick)....

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=71793&highlight=fined


...are updates on GP Motorcycles & Moto Forza in San Diego. It seems the truth is starting to come out about CARB and their arrogant, holier-than-thou ways of doing business.

I know Paul and the guys at GP. They are good, stand up guys.

RoadRacingWorld is following this, and was able to talk to both CARB & GP Motorcycles about the issue. It appears that the people at CARB are overstepping thier power, and, would rather fine small business owners (to make a profit) rather than correct the real problem at the DMV.

Decide for yourself...

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=38370

 

[jcasella]

Best way to stop an arrogant SOB is to make him swallow some teeth, they are usually very humble after that...

 

[jcns]

seems like MOTOGP has a case for a libel lawsuit.

"Apparently that was not enough for CARB. I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised, since it was clear they were willing to put me out of business in order to bring the DMV to task, but still the press release to the general public was shocking to me. It served no productive purpose that I could discern, since all dealerships were aware of the settlement. I can only conclude that the press release to the general public was a gratuitous attempt to damage my business - apparently as punishment for having taken them on. What is particularly galling is that the wording of the press release misrepresented what had transpired. CARB has tried to imply that I was fined by them (never happened) and that the fine was imposed for "modifying bikes" (again, never happened.) So to be clear, I was not fined - I settled to stop the litigation costs; I admitted no wrongdoing and I never modified a single bike that was the subject of this action."

 

[Synergy]

My question for CARB is how does the atmosphere tell the difference from off road exhaust gases to on road exhaust gases? The matter still stands that any motorcycle is putting out less emissions with better fuel economy than the highest performing gas/hybrid. Electric and Hydrogen excluded.

 

[woodyracing]

My question for CARB is how does the atmosphere tell the difference from off road exhaust gases to on road exhaust gases? The matter still stands that any motorcycle is putting out less emissions with better fuel economy than the highest performing gas/hybrid. Electric and Hydrogen excluded.

that's not actually true, specifically when looking at Nox emissions, motorcycles are actually quite a bit worse than cars. You've gotta remember that car emissions standards are MUCH more strict and they have developed much better systems of controlling emissions than the motorcycle manufacturers have. Motorcycles, especially sportbikes are designed for performance which means they want to be run pretty rich, in the case of Ducatis trying to meet Euro 3 specs the best they've come up with is a cat and running them REALLY lean which the bikes do not like very much. Car manufacturers have invested many many millions into developing systems that minimize the emissions and the motorcycle companies haven't done that. Technically speaking your average non-harley cruiser is probably worse than a hummer when it comes to emissions. The saving grace for bikes is that they account for a very small percentage of miles driven and they do burn less fuel so they aren't coming down on them as much as they have cars. When it comes to off road bikes, they can be fairly nasty emissions wise

I can assure you, in a few years when the motorcycle manufacturers have the technology to get motorcycle emissions down to car levels, they will and the bikes will be slower and heavier for it. That is the one downside to riding Ducatis, there is no 49 state vs Cali vs Euro spec, they are all built to meet the most strict spec.

also keep in mind one of the most effective methods the motorcycle manufacturers have used for keeping emissions this low is the secondary air injection systems which is just funneling some clean air straight to the exhaust pipes so the gas percentages read lower! Not actually doing anything at all to lower whats coming out the tail pipe, just diluting it with clean air to change the percentage!

 

[woodyracing]

but yeah, CARB is still full of it

 

[stryder]

Sorry, but I don't understand how a motorcycle dealer doing buiness in Cali for 15 years doesn't know that a dirt bike doesn't meet California emissions regulations. It sounds to me like somebody was trying to capatalise on a civil servant's mistaken interpretation of the law. They took a chance and lost. Why is CARB the bad guy?

 

[dirkwrong]

also keep in mind one of the most effective methods the motorcycle manufacturers have used for keeping emissions this low is the secondary air injection systems which is just funneling some clean air straight to the exhaust pipes so the gas percentages read lower! Not actually doing anything at all to lower whats coming out the tail pipe, just diluting it with clean air to change the percentage!

Actually, air injection works by combusting the unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas. Exhaust gas is oxygen poor so adding O2 to superheated unburned hydrocarbons lights them off, thus reducing that aspect of emissions. Since the burn is O2 rich, I assume that this reduces NOx too. I'm not an emissions expert though.

 

[dirkwrong]

Sorry, but I don't understand how a motorcycle dealer doing buiness in Cali for 15 years doesn't know that a dirt bike doesn't meet California emissions regulations. It sounds to me like somebody was trying to capatalise on a civil servant's mistaken interpretation of the law. They took a chance and lost. Why is CARB the bad guy?

The dealer didn't register the off highway bikes as on road. The DMV did that when the customer went to them to register the bike, according to the dealer's press release. The CARB is blaming the dealer when they should be blaming the DMV. The dealer needs a good lawyer, but it appears that hiring one is too expensive for him alone. Maybe he could join with other dealers to sue CARB? They need their collective asses kicked, that's for sure.

 

[woodyracing]

CARB is always the bad guy, they've been proving for years they care much less about the environmental issues than about the money they can bring in from people who don't comply 100% whether deliberately or if CARB just decides they don't like it.

 

[dirkwrong]

CARB is always the bad guy, they've been proving for years they care much less about the environmental issues than about the money they can bring in from people who don't comply 100% whether deliberately or if CARB just decides they don't like it.

I'm glad I don't live in California, but Virginia isn't much easier. No one likes a self righteous government. I nearly went bankrupt because someone changed the emissions testing laws where I lived. I had old cars that were exempt, and suddenly they were no longer that way, and there was no way to make them comply. I went to my state senator and we started the process of getting the law changed. I lobbied the state legislature to get the law changed. Me and a friend went around to all the state senators while they were in session to get them to sign on to the change. It was a very emotionally stressful time for me. I had a lot at risk and I was very pissed off at the unfairness of the law. We failed the first time, but it came back the next year and it passed. I didn't participate in getting it passed the next year. Unfortunately, I had to unload my cars at a loss by then, as well as my tools. I later moved to an area that doesn't have emissions testing at all, so it doesn't matter now but it's too late for me to get back into it.

 

[wlRider]

Typical govt. agency. And we want them to run health care?

 

[duc_season]

I can assure you, in a few years when the motorcycle manufacturers have the technology to get motorcycle emissions down to car levels, they will and the bikes will be slower and heavier for it. That is the one downside to riding Ducatis, there is no 49 state vs Cali vs Euro spec, they are all built to meet the most strict spec.

Which kind of begs the question....can manufacturers who build both cars and motorcycles for the US market (Honda and BMW) produce a cleaner burning bike? I'd suspect that they could and relatively quickly.

Actually, air injection works by combusting the unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas. Exhaust gas is oxygen poor so adding O2 to superheated unburned hydrocarbons lights them off, thus reducing that aspect of emissions. Since the burn is O2 rich, I assume that this reduces NOx too. I'm not an emissions expert though.

I've read something very similar. It helped to explain why some makes and models of automobiles were outfitted with air pumps several decades ago. They'd pump atmospheric air into the exhaust manifolds where the gases were still very hot in order to combust the unspent hydrocarbons. Sort of an afterburn.

With respect to running a motor too lean I've read that it can actually increase NOx concentrations because combustion temperatures increase when too much air is introduced into the mix. I've heard that exhaust gas recirculation was used as a control strategy.

 

[dirkwrong]

Typical govt. agency. And we want them to run health care?

I think the proposal is to provide some kind of health care for those who cannot afford it. It does not affect those who already have health insurance. If I could not afford health insurance, I'd be grateful for any kind of coverage, even if it was run by the government. Also, I think it is worthwhile trying to find some way to get some kind of insurance to those who cannot afford it in order to remove the burden on the hospital emergency rooms. Many people without health insurance use hospital ER's for their primary care, making it more difficult for them to provide care to people who really need it. As a federal employee, I know that government can do some things very well at very little cost, but I'm not blind to some of the absolute insanity that pervades some agencies. In the case of California, I think their government is falling apart, based on this case of the CARB and from other things I've read about.

Something I've realized recently is that the objection some folks have against "government" is actually a reaction to totalitarian control that some parts of government exert on their citizens. A totalitarian government can be benevolent or malevolent, but it's still totalitarian. A monarchy can be good or bad also, but it's still a monarchy. I don't think any of us object to the police doing their job when we need their help, for example, or the rescue squad doing their job either when needed. I guess I'm becoming more of a Libertarian now...

Sorry for the thread high jack...

 

[raffyk]

One of the local motorcycle dealers has been advised that:

Any exhaust installs or modifications would have to be on race bikes. That is:

Bikes would have to come in without turn signals and headlights covered or removed. Bikes would have to leave on a trailer and the dealer would have to document via video, paperwork etc.

They are scared ****less.

 

[stryder]

The dealer didn't register the off highway bikes as on road. The DMV did that when the customer went to them to register the bike, according to the dealer's press release. The CARB is blaming the dealer when they should be blaming the DMV. The dealer needs a good lawyer, but it appears that hiring one is too expensive for him alone. Maybe he could join with other dealers to sue CARB? They need their collective asses kicked, that's for sure.

Okay thanks, that helps explain things, a bit. Things work a little differently in Ontario, ie the dealer registers the new vehicle. But, I am still left wondering, was the dealer complicit by preparing the bikes for road use? I think he was.

 

[dirkwrong]

Okay thanks, that helps explain things, a bit. Things work a little differently in Ontario, ie the dealer registers the new vehicle. But, I am still left wondering, was the dealer complicit by preparing the bikes for road use? I think he was.

He says he never did that work. He says that it was the customers who did it.