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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Wow, rcrob - are you serious ...

Pegram is not running ex-Bayliss bikes ... ask Dan Kyle for the details, but I believe they are customer bikes with in house modded 1098R motors.

In WSBK, the rules may have been a result of politics but this 1125RR crap is not even close to that situation. Its clearly outside of the AMA's own rules ... unless they amended them but didn't post them anywhere
 

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Wow, rcrob - are you serious ...

Pegram is not running ex-Bayliss bikes ... ask Dan Kyle for the details, but I believe they are customer bikes with in house modded 1098R motors.

In WSBK, the rules may have been a result of politics but this 1125RR crap is not even close to that situation. Its clearly outside of the AMA's own rules ... unless they amended them but didn't post them anywhere
I may be wrong about the Bayliss bikes ( I was thrown by Pegram's references to Bayliss developing them). It doesn't change the fact that this is nothing different than Honda and even Ducati have done, that is build special race only bikes. Honda has for several years built "basic racers" which come stripped of all road equipment and have specially tuned motors etc. which are not road legal. Ducati skirts around the rules by building a race homologation special so they can run Ti con-rods and all the special kit parts. I remember that a lot of people where up in arms when the Buell XB-RR was allowed to race and it turned out to be a disaster.
 

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Actually Ducati didn't race for a few years here because their street bikes wouldn't handle race revs.

The bikes you listed are still streetbikes and can be bought by anyone. This is not street legal ever and will only be sold to racers with an AMA Pro license. What other bike in AMA Superbike competition is a purpose built racebike from the factory?
 

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Actually Ducati didn't race for a few years here because their street bikes wouldn't handle race revs.

The bikes you listed are still streetbikes and can be bought by anyone. This is not street legal ever and will only be sold to racers with an AMA Pro license. What other bike in AMA Superbike competition is a purpose built racebike from the factory?
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/000729b.htm

Lets see there was the RC51 as listed above. Then there was the Yamaha R-7 which required you to submit a race resume to purchase. The Buell is also a streetbike, based on the 1125R the same as the way the HRC basic racers where built based on the RC51 or the CBR. I don't see much of a difference, and the bike won't be competative so it really is a moot point.
 

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Great, you found a few things from the past. Now please answer my question about the present.

Moot point or not, if the rules are wrong you change them, you don't allow exceptions mid season for one company. What's even weirder is this came about because Buell wanted to homologate parts and was told to build the bike - totally against how the rules are written. I don't honestly care about the homologation rules and the like but just nuke them if you're not going to follow them.
 

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Great, you found a few things from the past. Now please answer my question about the present.

Moot point or not, if the rules are wrong you change them, you don't allow exceptions mid season for one company. What's even weirder is this came about because Buell wanted to homologate parts and was told to build the bike - totally against how the rules are written. I don't honestly care about the homologation rules and the like but just nuke them if you're not going to follow them.
Precedence was set in the past and it really isn't anything new.

Now your answer:

lets look at the homologation rules:
General requirements--
"1.2 Homologation of Motorcycles
a. Only motorcycles homologated by AMA Pro Racing may be used
in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned road racing competition.
b. Homologation procedure information and applications are
available from the AMA Pro Racing office.
c. AMA Pro Racing will only review applications for homologation
from motorcycle manufacturers or their distributors.
d. Once a motorcycle has been approved, it may be used until such
time that the homologated motorcycle no longer complies with the
technical rules.
e. Compliance with homologation requirements will not guarantee
AMA Pro Racing approval. Homologation may be withheld or
withdrawn for any reason AMA Pro Racing deems is in the best
interest of competition.
f. A list of eligible motorcycle models for each racing class is
available from the AMA Pro Racing office.
g. Additional homologation requirements for each class are listed in
the associated class standards section. Each motorcycle will have
a Technical Information Form (henceforth known as TIF)."

I don't see any violations here.
Superbike specific

"b. American Superbike motorcycles must be street certified in the
US and available through US retail dealers. Information on
motorcycle homologation is available from AMA Pro Racing."
Since this is the section in question lets discuss it. I guess the question is the 1125RR street certified. I would contend that yes it is as the 1125R especially since the material differences between the standard bike and the RR all fall within the rules with respect to changes that may be made to the motorcycle. But lets look at the changes:

Engine:
From Buell:
"The Buell 1125RR features a modified Helicon 1125cc (103mm bore x 67.5mm stroke) liquid-cooled 72-degree V-Twin engine. Power increases come from components including a larger airbox and intake manifold, revised valves and camshafts, a higher compression ratio, titanium exhaust system and other weight-reduced components."
The rules:
"i. Aftermarket or modified valves, springs, retainers and other
valve-train components are permitted. The original number of
valves must be maintained"
"i. The original camshafts may be modified or replaced from those
fitted to the homologated motorcycle. They must be approved
and appear on the Eligible Equipment List."
"3. The compression ratio is unrestricted"
"i. Airbox must remain as originally produced by the manufacturer
on the homologated motorcycle."Special allowances: Air Box: Buell Race Part P2215.08B2"
"i. The exhaust pipes and silencers may be modified or replaced
from those fitted to the homologated motorcycle. They must be
approved and appear on the Eligible Equipment List."
Nothing in the rules about the intake manifold (surprising).
From Buell
"Dual 61mm down-draft fuel-injection throttle bodies"<--standard is 61mm downdrafts.

Chassis:
"The 1125RR chassis is the standard 1125R design with fuel-in-the-frame, plus a billet axle adjustment system and chain-drive to allow gearing changes. Suspension travel is managed by fully adjustable units, with a Showa 43mm front fork and a remote-reservoir rear shock. A ZTL2 (Zero Torsional Load) eight-piston front caliper is mated with a modified front rotor."
Rules:
"iii. Axle adjusters and axle adjuster blocks may be modified or
replaced. Gussets and bracing may be added. A provision for
shock absorber and spring clearances is allowed. Link and link
arm pick up points must remain as homologated. The range of
axle adjustment must remain as homologated unless there is
inadequate tire clearance. This problem will be considered on a
case-by-case basis and provided for under special allowances
in that model’s Technical Information Form.
iv. For Buell, the approved chain drive conversion is Buell Part #
G0625.08A2."
"i. Wheels and associated parts may be modified or replaced
from those fitted to the homologated motorcycle. Any wheel
from the Eligible Equipment List is allowed."
"v. Brake discs may be modified or replaced from those fitted to
the homologated motorcycle with approved parts appearing
on the Eligible Equipment List."

So in short, the bike fits to the current rules without changing anything. Nothing is being homologated that isn't already allowed in the rules. They are not gaining anything, so where is the problem?
 

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The 1125RR is not for sale as a street bike or to anyone other than licensed racers. Therefore that model is NOT street certified. Period. End of story.

What's really stupid is Buell didn't even do this on their own, AMA made them do it.
 

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The 1125RR is not for sale as a street bike or to anyone other than licensed racers. Therefore that model is NOT street certified. Period. End of story.

What's really stupid is Buell didn't even do this on their own, AMA made them do it.
If they called it the 1125 r basic racer would that make you happy?

Again this is a case of much ado about nothing. It has been done in the past, there is nothing equipment wise that gives it an unfair advantage and frankly it won't compete anyway. And it certainly wouldn't be my choice as a superbike platform...
 

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A name change wouldn't matter. If they changed the rules to allow it then it would make me happy. Doing this for one company and not having the rules allowing it for all companies is a really truly bad idea for AMA right now.

Precedence doesn't matter in rules. They are what they are for that year and unless changed should be followed.
 

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A name change wouldn't matter. If they changed the rules to allow it then it would make me happy. Doing this for one company and not having the rules allowing it for all companies is a really truly bad idea for AMA right now.

Precedence doesn't matter in rules. They are what they are for that year and unless changed should be followed.
But the gray area is what is the bike? I can look at it and say it is a 1125R which IS sold for the street and therefore legal. My guess is that is what DMG's position will be also. It is simply an interpretation of the rule and subject to a huge gray area. Now if the 1125RR was a radical change which was meant to homologate parts, then I would agree with you. If they changed the bore stroke ratio, or changed the displacement or the chassis or something then I would say it is a different bike, but what the 1125RR is is basically an 1125R that has had class legal modifications done at the factory instead of at a workshop. Anyone can go buy an 1125R and build it to the same specs as an 1125RR.
I think if Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki or any of the other marques where to build a bike like this (a basic racer as Honda used to call it) then it should be allowed, but for many years now the japanese factories have promised to make kit parts available etc, but they never seem to materialize. Speculating about whether or not the other marques are or aren't being allowed to do this is moot also, because they haven't even tried as far as I know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
But the gray area is what is the bike? I can look at it and say it is a 1125R which IS sold for the street and therefore legal. My guess is that is what DMG's position will be also. It is simply an interpretation of the rule and subject to a huge gray area. Now if the 1125RR was a radical change which was meant to homologate parts, then I would agree with you. If they changed the bore stroke ratio, or changed the displacement or the chassis or something then I would say it is a different bike, but what the 1125RR is is basically an 1125R that has had class legal modifications done at the factory instead of at a workshop. Anyone can go buy an 1125R and build it to the same specs as an 1125RR.
That's pretty much what the AMA held in 2006 with the XB12RR and I can see an argument based on the FX rules back then but not now. The other bikes you listed were still "street certified" in todays lingo. My whole point is that the series in dire straights and they chose to pull this move with one of the series "partners" who are also supplying pace bikes., I mean c'mon already - its a joke.
 

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That's pretty much what the AMA held in 2006 with the XB12RR and I can see an argument based on the FX rules back then but not now. The other bikes you listed were still "street certified" in todays lingo. My whole point is that the series in dire straights and they chose to pull this move with one of the series "partners" who are also supplying pace bikes., I mean c'mon already - its a joke.
How are they street certified? Do they have lights, do they have turn signals? Are they the same bike that rolls off the production line with the same standard components? No. The only difference we are talking about what HRC did with their production racers and what Buell has done with the 1125RR is the name. If Buell had decided to name the bike the Buell 1125R superbike kit I'd bet we wouldn't be having this debate.

But how about you answer this question:
What does Buell gain as a competitive advantage with the 1125RR that it doesn't get with the 1125R built to the limit of the superbike rules?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I doubt they'll have any competitive advantage ... and I agree with you that if they packaged it as a kit we wouldn't have this discussion. But the fact remains that they went throught the homologation process with a different bike that is not offered for sale to the general public for street use. My beef is with the AMA's handling of a pretty clear provision in the rules, that's all. If you are going to allow that type of modification then put it in the rule book so that the other manufacturers can do the same. I'm sure racers would have some interest in turn key AMA GSXR's, R-1s and 1000RR's don't you? So why not just state that in the rules - that you can homologate a bike and then sell a race only version to spec that will be approved for competition?
 

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I doubt they'll have any competitive advantage ... and I agree with you that if they packaged it as a kit we wouldn't have this discussion. But the fact remains that they went throught the homologation process with a different bike that is not offered for sale to the general public for street use. My beef is with the AMA's handling of a pretty clear provision in the rules, that's all. If you are going to allow that type of modification then put it in the rule book so that the other manufacturers can do the same. I'm sure racers would have some interest in turn key AMA GSXR's, R-1s and 1000RR's don't you? So why not just state that in the rules - that you can homologate a bike and then sell a race only version to spec that will be approved for competition?
I don't know who instigated what. Mongo indicated that the AMA instigated the whole thing but maybe Buell started it. I don't really know. Given the fact that the Buell has been homologated the door is wide open for the other manufacturers to do just that and frankly I wouldn't have a problem if Suzuki or anyone else produced a turn key superbike for privateers to buy. I think the factories have shut out privateer teams by not allowing them the same access to parts that the factories have. Maybe that is the point to the whole exercise, who knows.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Given the fact that the Buell has been homologated the door is wide open for the other manufacturers to do just that and frankly I wouldn't have a problem if Suzuki or anyone else produced a turn key superbike for privateers to buy. I think the factories have shut out privateer teams by not allowing them the same access to parts that the factories have. Maybe that is the point to the whole exercise, who knows.
I agree ... lets see if the big 4 come up with something for 2010. I wonder how many Buells will make it to the grid this year.

I'd be happier if the rules are amended too. I can't help it, its the lawyer in me ;)
 

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I agree ... lets see if the big 4 come up with something for 2010. I wonder how many Buells will make it to the grid this year.

I'd be happier if the rules are amended too. I can't help it, its the lawyer in me ;)
For the money, I can't see the Buell as the bike to buy unless they are paying huge contingency cash. Forty grand gets you into 1098R territory which is undoubtedly better than the Buell. But dollar for dollar it is probably hard to beat the GSXR or CBR or R1 as the platform to have.
 
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