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Ask Keith Code!!

171K views 587 replies 158 participants last post by  Chuckracer 
#1 ·
Hey folks,

Any intetest in having Keith Code join us for a Q & A session regadring "proper" cornering techniques. Keith is an expert in the field as you all know...

Let me know and if so, I'll set it up.. :=}

Brian
 
#52 ·
codedog said:
Purspeed,

NO mystery here on this point, look at most shots of bikes leaned into turns and you can easily see that the wheel responds to the intial counter-steer push by rotating slightly in toward the corner in the direction the bike is traveling.

The only variation on that is if the back tire is sliding and then you would see the front tire turned out, toward the outside of the turn.

Keith
Hi Kieth,

Thanks for your response. To follow up on my question then, can I adjust my lean angle by push-then-pull in direction of turn. So, in other words, after the initial push, the bike leans and corrects itself by the front wheel rotating in the direction of the turn.

At this stage in the turn, can I adjust by applying pressure in the opposite direction of the initial push?
 
#53 ·
Turn 3

Hey Keith,as a trackday instructor turn 3 at Loudon can be a real tough sell. Some students listen and don't look at the wall. They usually progress fairly well. Others resign themselves to "just getting through it". I can't fault these folks 'cause falling at a trackday really bites. However, my emphasis is always to teach skills at the track which will make better and safer street riders. Any thoughts on teaching them how to overcome the mental blocks? Thanks for this forum.
 
#54 ·
steering

Purspeed said:
Hi Kieth,

Thanks for your response. To follow up on my question then, can I adjust my lean angle by push-then-pull in direction of turn. So, in other words, after the initial push, the bike leans and corrects itself by the front wheel rotating in the direction of the turn.

At this stage in the turn, can I adjust by applying pressure in the opposite direction of the initial push?
Puspeed,

Just to make it clear, let's say you are in a left hand turn leaned over at a conservative angle and you need to lean it over some more to keep from running too wide at the exit. Another press on the left bar is going to achieve that additional lean for you. So no matter how you slice it, you are countersteering to get into the turn or adjusting the lean once already into it.

Same at the end of the turn. When you come to the point of bringing the bike back up out of that left hander, you would either press on the right bar or pull on the left one.

Keith
 
#55 ·
truth said:
Hey Keith,as a trackday instructor turn 3 at Loudon can be a real tough sell. Some students listen and don't look at the wall. They usually progress fairly well. Others resign themselves to "just getting through it". I can't fault these folks 'cause falling at a trackday really bites. However, my emphasis is always to teach skills at the track which will make better and safer street riders. Any thoughts on teaching them how to overcome the mental blocks? Thanks for this forum.
Truth,

No that can't be done. There is no one solution to what you say but then again I'm not totally sure of what you are asking me. What "mental block" are you talking about exactly?

Telling someone to "not do something", like look at the wall. doesn't exactly contain a solution to any problem.

The one thing that must be done in coaching is to find out what the person is doing exactly and then there are a variety of solutions once that can be accurately identified.

For example, it matters what part of the wall the person is looking at and when they are looking at it.

Keith
 
#56 ·
Keith,

More on the highside thing. Would it be true that if you always maintained throttle when the rear steps out, you would either recover it, or lowside?

I just saw this great clip of a highside in the wet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_U7unoE6xk&mode=related&search=

and it reminded me of my recent highside experience. As the rear loses traction the motor surges since it's no longer under drag, and quickly spins the rear tire much faster than the bike is going. Seems unrecoverable.

But if the rider had maintained the throttle, and leaned inside the slide, might he have had a relatively pleasant lowside experience?

Thanks,
COMR1
 
#58 ·
codedog said:
Puspeed,

Just to make it clear, let's say you are in a left hand turn leaned over at a conservative angle and you need to lean it over some more to keep from running too wide at the exit. Another press on the left bar is going to achieve that additional lean for you. So no matter how you slice it, you are countersteering to get into the turn or adjusting the lean once already into it.

Same at the end of the turn. When you come to the point of bringing the bike back up out of that left hander, you would either press on the right bar or pull on the left one.

Keith
Hi Kieth

So the solution to greater lean and recovery is always counter-steering. Thanks for that invaluable info, Keith. :)
 
#59 ·
CheatingOnMyR1 said:
Keith,

More on the highside thing. Would it be true that if you always maintained throttle when the rear steps out, you would either recover it, or lowside?

I just saw this great clip of a highside in the wet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_U7unoE6xk&mode=related&search=

and it reminded me of my recent highside experience. As the rear loses traction the motor surges since it's no longer under drag, and quickly spins the rear tire much faster than the bike is going. Seems unrecoverable.

But if the rider had maintained the throttle, and leaned inside the slide, might he have had a relatively pleasant lowside experience?

Thanks,
COMR1
You got a good point but the answer is maybe. The one thing the rider didn't do that is very useful in wet is to get his body off the inside of the bike instead of crossed over the tank, which raises the C of G of the bike and rider combination forcing him or anyone into using more lean than they would have used if on the inside of the bike.

He would have been luckier to have had the back come all the way around and yes that would have resulted in a low side becuase it never would have hooked up and spit hi off like it did in the video.

Keith
 
#60 ·
Barriers

truth said:
I think I catch your drift here Keith and will try to impliment a different technique in both myand the students self analysis of their progress. Should allow me to suggest what to do instead of what not to do.
Great, I'm positive you will get better results doing it like this. Not to say you are going to "solve" it for them. In the end the rider must push throught their own barriers. But the first step is alwasy to see that you have a barrier. Nothing can happen without that awareness.

Keith
 
#61 · (Edited)
Lean and recovery

Purspeed said:
Hi Kieth

So the solution to greater lean and recovery is always counter-steering. Thanks for that invaluable info, Keith. :)
I wouldn't put it that way quite. If you were to push the bike down underneath yourself, motocross style, it would lean more without any steering input. The question is: does it turn more--will it tighten up the turn?

The mechanical answer to that is NO, it does not. When the C of G of the bike and rider combination are raised by the rider straightening up his body and pushing the bike beneath hm or herself, it requires more lean to hold the same arc through the turn.

Make sense to you?

Keith

PS: Yes, your statement is correct except for the above situation of pushing i beneath you. The reason I bouhgt it up is that most riders tend to push the bike beneath them especially in emergency situations but sometimes in all situations.
 
#62 ·
We need a new Forum "Ask Keith Code"

Keith,

It is great to have you here to answer questions about different riding techniques and how to correct one's bad habits.

That said, I think it will be best if the site owner or one of the moderators create a new forum dedicated to asking you questions. That way we can have different threads concerning different problem areas. With a dedicated forum it will also be easier to follow a particular riding technique and all of its follow up questions.

Again thanks for taking the time and helping the riding community.

Best Regards,
Fariborz
 
#63 ·
codedog said:
I wouldn't put it that way quite. If you were to push the bike down underneath yourself, motocross style, it would lean more without any steering input. The question is: does it turn more--will it tighten up the turn?

The mechanical answer to that is NO, it does not. When the C of G of the bike and rider combination are raised by the rider straightening up his body and pushing the bike beneath hm or herself, it requires more lean to hold the same arc through the turn.

Make sense to you?

Keith

PS: Yes, your statement is correct except for the above situation of pushing i beneath you. The reason I bouhgt it up is that most riders tend to push the bike beneath them especially in emergency situations but sometimes in all situations.
Hi Kieth,

Your information above makes absolute sense to me and it is something that I didn't consider.

So, keep your behind on the seat when negotiating turns is the most efficient in obtaining the tightest turn for a given input due to center of gravity.

I think I understand. Thanks for that valuable piece of info! :)
 
#64 · (Edited by Moderator)
Fariborz said:
That said, I think it will be best if the site owner or one of the moderators create a new forum dedicated to asking you questions. That way we can have different threads concerning different problem areas. With a dedicated forum it will also be easier to follow a particular riding technique and all of its follow up questions.
codedog said:
I see what you mean but I'm fine with the format. If riders want to continue along on the same subject for a while I'm OK with that. If they highjack the thread we can always try and keep it focused.
For what it's worth, the mods and admins talked about how best to do this and we decided that a single stickied thread would be good "for now." While this thread has gotten good attention and has some really valuable information in it, we're still in the "see how it goes" phase.

I just wanted people to know that your site poobahs aren't completely mindless (most of the time). :) As always, we're trying to make Ducati.ms the best community we can.

Enjoy!

Note: What?! Huh??? For the record, this was posted by me: ROB -- not Keith. Some kind of forum glitch seems to have attributed it to "codedog," but it was, in fact, authored by sweet, furry, lovable ole me.

-- Rob
 
#65 ·
Purspeed said:
Hi Kieth,

Your information above makes absolute sense to me and it is something that I didn't consider.

So, keep your behind on the seat when negotiating turns is the most efficient in obtaining the tightest turn for a given input due to center of gravity.

I think I understand. Thanks for that valuable piece of info! :)
Purspeed,

OK, we'll take it to the next level. If riding high (torso erect bike pushed underneath them) in the saddle forces the rider to lean the bike more for a given speed and sitting straight (torso going with the bike) gives us less lean in comparison, what happens if the rider gets their torso mass more to the inside of the bike?

Many of you know the answer to this but let's just get it out there again and we can go from there.

Keith
 
#67 ·
Riding high

Purspeed said:
Hi Kieth,

Regarding your above explanation, do you have any graphics to illustrate the difference of riding high vs. riding straight?

Thanks. :)
Purspeed,

Not to hand I don't but if you look at one of the Ducati racers, Larry Pegram, you will see a great example of someone who is riding high to the bike, he is quite twisted on it and not in line with the machine. That is a racing example.

A simple way of looking at it: Is the rider's head and torso in line or out of line with the centerline of the bike.



Keith
 
#68 ·
Purspeed said:
Hi Kieth,

Regarding your above explanation, do you have any graphics to illustrate the difference of riding high vs. riding straight?

Thanks. :)
From my own learning experiences, you need to look at this in three dimensional space and from two perspectives.

Perspective #1: Flying directly above the bike looking down. Define the centerline of the bike as a straight line drawn between the two tires, and the center line of the body drawn from your butt to your head. Is the centerline of your body to the inside of the turn compared to the centerline of the bike, and is the it parallel with the centerline of the bike?

Perspective #2: Sitting on the ground from the inside of the turn looking directly at the side of the bike. Imagine a horizontal line that is at seat level, and again a line from rider's butt to head. What is the angle between the horizontal line and the centerline of the rider? Is the rider's line straight or curved (back arched or straight)?

You see riders who move their butts completely off of the seat, yet their upper body (chest & head) is still behind the windscreen; twisted when looking from perspective #1. You also see riders who will get into the proper position from perspective #1 (body centerline inside and parallel with bike centerline), but a large angle from perspective #2.

I was doing perspective #1 wrong until Keith's instructor Misty corrected that for me. Until recently was also doing perspective #2 wrong but am working on that.
 
#69 ·
codedog said:
Purspeed,

Not to hand I don't but if you look at one of the Ducati racers, Larry Pegram, you will see a great example of someone who is riding high to the bike, he is quite twisted on it and not in line with the machine. That is a racing example.

A simple way of looking at it: Is the rider's head and torso in line or out of line with the centerline of the bike.



Keith
Hello Keith,

Completed your 2-day class at Watkins Glen in 1986 and was hooked ever since.

Seems like over the years, I've adopted a riding position that seems to work comfortably for me at the track. If I had to compare this position, it's closest to how Duhamel and Bayliss ride.

Let me know if this is an example of how "not" to position your body:



Thanks in advance,

Bob
 
#70 ·
codedog said:
If you were to push the bike down underneath yourself, motocross style, it would lean more without any steering input. The question is: does it turn more--will it tighten up the turn?

The mechanical answer to that is NO, it does not. When the C of G of the bike and rider combination are raised by the rider straightening up his body and pushing the bike beneath hm or herself, it requires more lean to hold the same arc through the turn.

Make sense to you?

Keith
First of all Keith, nice to see you here...

Question: Why do motocross racers do this? Seems like a lot more effort with every turn - pushing the bike farther than needed for more for no additional gain in turning radius. Also, it seems there would be less potential accelleration available as the bike begins to exit the corner since the bike is on a narrower portion of the tire... and of course more work getting the bike back upright.

And a follow-up. If I walk alongside my bike and turn the handlebars to the lock then make a u-turn while holding the bike straight up would the turn I make be the same radius as the one I made doing the same thing but leaning the bike while making the u-turn?
 
#71 ·
Hi Kieth,

Your explanation makes a lot of sense to me and is illuminating. I will have a follow up question as soon as I conceptualize your information in the 4th dimension. ;)

Hi Badger,

I really appreciate you taking the time out for that detailed explanation. For something that is fairly complex to describe, you described it perfectly. Very informative. :)
 
#73 ·
codedog said:
Purspeed,

OK, we'll take it to the next level. If riding high (torso erect bike pushed underneath them) in the saddle forces the rider to lean the bike more for a given speed and sitting straight (torso going with the bike) gives us less lean in comparison, what happens if the rider gets their torso mass more to the inside of the bike?

Many of you know the answer to this but let's just get it out there again and we can go from there.

Keith

Would this do for a comparison?

High VS low
High:

Low


High

Low


//amullo
(That´s me on the yellow 748.. I need to move my butt out further..)
 

Attachments

#74 ·
Those pic's are worth a thousand words Amullo. :)

But, I am a bit confused. Is the parallel bike to body with body angled forward the correct position, then? Is there a correct position? Or can you have your bike and body parallel yet still sit straight?

Thanks. :)
 
#75 ·
body position

Hi Bob,

over 20 years ago you and I were at the Glen, WOW. Well, you wouldn't recognize the school now. The only things that are the same is my wife Judy and my son Dylan and me are still there.

So, on your bike shot. It is pretty obvious that you are acorss the longitudinal center line of the bike and therefore "high" on the bike forcing you to lean the bike more than if your body mass was center or to the inside of the center.

Put another way: the left edge of the windscreen is to the left of your helmet. If your nose was in line with the left side of the screen or if the left side of the screen was to the right of your helmet you'd be in tall cotton on controling the excess lean you have in that shot.

Keith

TZ250 said:
Hello Keith,

Completed your 2-day class at Watkins Glen in 1986 and was hooked ever since.

Seems like over the years, I've adopted a riding position that seems to work comfortably for me at the track. If I had to compare this position, it's closest to how Duhamel and Bayliss ride.

Let me know if this is an example of how "not" to position your body:



Thanks in advance,

Bob
 
#76 ·
sitting straight

Purspeed,

Sitting straight is fine. If you aren't in an agressive riding situation or trying to get out of the wind there isn't much use in just riding around feeling uncomfortable for the sake of looking cool in a crouch...!

Keith

Purspeed said:
Those pic's are worth a thousand words Amullo. :)

But, I am a bit confused. Is the parallel bike to body with body angled forward the correct position, then? Is there a correct position? Or can you have your bike and body parallel yet still sit straight?

Thanks. :)
 
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