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Discussion Starter #1
Can you guys and gals provide some tips you use to get your cornerspeed up? I know the bike and I can get through corners alot faster. I am braking too much before the corner. I think the survival instinct I have is holding me back. Is it just more saddletime?
 

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Work on it gradually. Work on your brake marks and another "trick" is to find a section with a series of corners that are about the same speed/radius. Don't use a speed so high you have to brake. Just go through at one speed. Don't accellerate or decellerate between corners. Just keep the speed the same all the way through the section. Then go through a little faster then up your speed incrementally each time until you crash. Then back off a little. -;
 

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grendels_arm said:
Can you guys and gals provide some tips you use to get your corner speed up? I know the bike and I can get through corners a lot faster. I am braking too much before the corner. I think the survival instinct I have is holding me back. Is it just more saddle time?
Practice is king.

Try going into corners "setup" so that you do not have to brake, accelerate, or do anything but turn. This will show you just how radical you can get into a turn, in terms of lean and speed.

IMHO, you may be trying to do too much while turning, then you panic when thinking "oh, oh, here comes a turn," and end up going 5 mph into a turn, with your bike in a lean, and your body straight up.

Later, develop techniques such as when to accelerate as you are into a turn, etc.

Also, one mistake riders make is to look at the road directly in front of them as they are turning. Causes riders to "panic," lose balance and brake [or slow way down].

So: after quickly determining the path in front of you is clear, as you approach the turn, try looking at where you want to end up AFTER the turn rather than the road in front of you.

The concept is kind of like those tightrope walkers. Notice that they never look at their feet as they walk the rope, they look ahead. This because if they look directly below their feet, they will lose their balance. So they instead "look at where they want to end up."

Also the same as making a u-turn, where you look at where you want to end up after the u-turn rather than the road in front of you. Wobbly u-turns are usually caused by riders looking that their front tire, so to speak, as they are making the turn.

Just some basics, before you get to the basics. Hope this helps.
 

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Buy a small displacement bike with low torque and go to the track. Something like an aprilia rs 250 might be nice. I personally like the TZ250 or Honda Rs250 but they require more maintenance and are a bit more expensive to operate. A 125 is cheaper but depending on your proportions may be a torture rack. Nothing will get your coner speed up like riding one of these things for a couple of seasons.;)
 

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grendels_arm said:
Can you guys and gals provide some tips you use to get your cornerspeed up? I know the bike and I can get through corners alot faster. I am braking too much before the corner. I think the survival instinct I have is holding me back. Is it just more saddletime?
Read Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist II". Generally, I think he's kind of a whacko, but he spends a lot of time talking about the mental aspects of going fast and overcoming that survival instinct.

One way I work on corner speed is to decide in advance how fast a corner can be taken. Usually that involves getting input from instructors and racers and such-like. Take Thunderhill's Turn 1 for example. I've spoken with racers who tell me that 120mph is doable and the real fast guys can hit it at even higher speeds and make it. That corner is pretty nicely cambered and both the entrance and exits provide lots of real-estate. I've also been told that you can enter the corner from pretty much anywhere across the track and still exit okay.

So, armed with this knowledge, I began working on the corner. First, I determined that my slow and sorry ass was slowing down to about 60mph before entering the corner. Apparently there was lots of room for improvement! So I tried to kick it up 10mph at a time. The way I did that was to get my braking done early and set my entry speed well before the corner. I'd then try to maintain my speed to the apex and get on the gas as early as I could.

That day, the last time I was at T-hill as a matter of fact, I was hitting T1 at around 95mph and getting through it okay. That's about where my personal survival instinct refused to budge any further. :) I'd pushed it beyond 150% that day and just couldn't eek out another 1%. Next time I'm back there, I may continue to work on being fast around that corner, or I might pick another corner.

And I think that's a good strategy too, especially if you're riding the same track repeatedly. Work on one corner at a time. Once you're comfortable with your speed in that corner, move to another corner while trying to keep up your pace through the ones you've already "conquered." Sometimes it's okay to work multiple corners at once. For example, T-hill is a pretty big track. I could work on T1 and also like T6 because there was so much time and space between them I could assimilate what I'd done on T1 and then mentally prepare myself for T6 before I got there, then have time afterward to assimilate T6 before facing T1 again.

Also I found that at Buttonwillow it was helpful to not pick off a corner at a time but rather work on sections of track. I took T1 and T2 as two separate corners, but then T3 all the way up through T7 I worked as one "unit". Again, T8-T12 was a section I strung together in my brain, then T13 and T14. T15 through the esses got lumped together, and then I'd treat the last corner onto the front straight as its own animal.

Conversely, I was really uncomfortable and slow on Buttonwillow my first couple of sessions there because I tried to grasp the whole track at once. With 20 corners, that's a pretty monumental task. Once I started mentally breaking it up into sections and working on one section at a time, it was much less overwhelming.

Anyhow, hope some of that helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I guess the problem I have is I have no speedometer. So can't really bump up my speed 5 mph. Shouldn't be looking at your speedo anyway. :) But there was one area after a turn I knew I had accelerated out faster based on the RPM of the bike.

It's just when I'm at the track I feel I'm trying to survive, have a good time, etc. All the details I guess I'm not working on. I mean sure I am working on getting my lines better in all turns, getting my position better, etc. One thing I do well is look through a turn. That isn't a problem for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
RotoRooterGuy said:
Practice is king.

Try going into corners "setup" so that you do not have to brake, accelerate, or do anything but turn. This will show you just how radical you can get into a turn, in terms of lean and speed.
Doesn't this mean you'll be coasting before the turn? I mean we did a few sessions where we didn't brake the whole time. That's a good way to help your cornerspeed I think. But I still found myself doing some engine braking when I got slightly freaked out instead of just trying to see if the bike could get through the turn. Hopefully one day it hits me. I guess I'm just not good at teaching myself this stuff.
 

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Yeah, just try to hold throttle and everything steady and up the speed each time you go through. The racer boy shit is fun, but DON'T GET HURT. You're not getting paid millions, you don't have an endorsement so don't let the ego take over. It ain't worth it.
 

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grendels_arm said:
Doesn't this mean you'll be coasting before the turn? I mean we did a few sessions where we didn't brake the whole time. That's a good way to help your corner speed I think. But I still found myself doing some engine braking when I got slightly freaked out instead of just trying to see if the bike could get through the turn. Hopefully one day it hits me. I guess I'm just not good at teaching myself this stuff.
As I recall, some cornering school's start you out "coasting" through turns at graduated and increasing speeds to get you used to turns and seeing how radical a turn one can make. They do not want you to work the brake, throttle or clutch, just to be in gear, steady and doing nothing, as it's the throttle, brake, shifting or working the clutch that inexperienced riders resort to in one way or the other when they panic or become cautious.

I did not mean to imply that you were doing 5mph turns, I was just figuratively speaking.

Here is a little video you can train yourself on.

Bonus tip: don't try the wheelie depicted about 1/2 way into the video.:eek:

http://www.heartinsanfrancisco.com/triumphdaytonatriple.wmv
 

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grendels_arm said:
I guess the problem I have is I have no speedometer. So can't really bump up my speed 5 mph. Shouldn't be looking at your speedo anyway. :) But there was one area after a turn I knew I had accelerated out faster based on the RPM of the bike.

It's just when I'm at the track I feel I'm trying to survive, have a good time, etc. All the details I guess I'm not working on. I mean sure I am working on getting my lines better in all turns, getting my position better, etc. One thing I do well is look through a turn. That isn't a problem for me.
Well, obviously if you don't have a speedometer then gauging how fast you're cornering is a bit more guesswork. As far as "shouldn't be looking at your speedo anyway," that's generally true. For my example at T-hill, though, T1 is at the end of the long front straight. I would go down the middle of the straight, giving people room on both sides to get around me, and then try to have my speed regulated by about the start/finish line. I would then stop looking at the speedometer and try to maintain that speed all the way through the first turn -- not coasting exactly, but not engine-braking either.

You could do the same with the tachometer, I suppose. Figure out what gear and RPM you're comfortable hitting the corner, and the next time around try it at an extra 500RPM or so. Work it up until you're taking the corner in a higher gear, and then start working up through the revs again.

An alternative would be to work on hitting exactly the same braking, turn-in, apex, and roll-on points through the corner -- every time. When you're comfortable with that, try delaying getting off the throttle and onto the brakes a one-count later than you're used to. Be sure you're body is positioned well BEFORE that point, and be sure you're mentally ready to pull the trigger, turn the bike in, and aim for the apex.

My "looking through the corner" technique for most corners comes in three distinct pieces. Exiting the prior corner and approaching the next, I'm looking at my braking zone. I stay focused there until I'm pretty much done braking, and then my focus shifts to the corner's apex. I focus there until I'm sure I'm going to hit it, and then my focus moves forward through the exit to set up for the next corner. As soon as I know I've hit my apex, I put that corner behind me and start thinking about the next one.

I'm slow. I admit that freely and humbly. But it occurs to me just the same that the faster you get, the less time you have to get mentally prepared for the next corner -- so an ability to put a corner behind you as soon as possible becomes important.

Anyhow, I'm just blathering. :)
 

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What really helped me is to get my body in the correct position by hanging off the bike a bit. I am riding most of the time with my weight on the pegs and not on the seat. The race tires gave me the confidence to lean over farther and go a bit faster. You have to have the confidence to go fast.

Mike
 

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grendels_arm said:
Can you guys and gals provide some tips you use to get your cornerspeed up? I know the bike and I can get through corners alot faster. I am braking too much before the corner. I think the survival instinct I have is holding me back. Is it just more saddletime?
hmmm, sam.. cornerspeed is a tuff one. i think focusing more on being smooth and selecting the right gear with minimal amount of engine braking while still in control will eventually get you in the right direction.

this is one area i need improvement. something i constantly work on while i'm at the track. when you're comfortable enough and racelines are second nature, try late braking in increments on your markers(3-2-1). each time scrubbing less speed and increasing entry speed. twins have a tendency to slow the bike down dramatically. it's not like a freewheel bike compared to 2 strokes or i-4's. so ride in at a higher gear. pick the corner that has plenty of runoff in case you come in extremely hot. a little added insurance to go straight rather than running out of track and risk lowsiding. work on that same corner the whole day while increasing your speed. trust me, you'll know when you're too hot cus your buttcheeks will clinch. heheh.. just take your time, it'll come.

this is another reason why i want a 2-stroke or a 400 to switch back and forth on. i need help on my riding technique.
 

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grendels_arm said:
Can you guys and gals provide some tips you use to get your cornerspeed up? I know the bike and I can get through corners alot faster. I am braking too much before the corner. I think the survival instinct I have is holding me back. Is it just more saddletime?
Unless you have a good understanding of proper body position, line choice and brake/throttle control, trying to increase cornering speed by simply going faster only increases the chances of throwing an expensive piece of Italian hardward into the weeds (and getting hurt)... Once you understand these techniques, apply them and practice them then your corner speeds will increase by themselves.

This is a great book. It's writen by the lead instructor at Fast Freddie's school in Vegas. I've been to this school and own this book. Nearly everything they teach is here... This in a VERY valuable reference. Much better than Code's and some of the others I've read/seen.

 

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oh yeah, trust your tires. it's amazing what they can do. and when in doubt, lean and looook all the way through. you have a high probability of making the turn. it's a mental thing.
 
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i agree...i have race tires on my triumph...and i trust it so much more than the duc..which has its stock tires on it still...its all about confidence...technically i should be better at riding the duc but with those tires i feel so much better on the Triumph'



and props on that book! i have iit ! lol
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Maybe I'm being too hard on myself. This was my first track event of the year. My first season was last year and I rode 7 total days. I really tryed working on my body position thi time. Didn't always do it right. Not getting my butt off the seat enough.
 

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ducatimike said:
What really helped me is to get my body in the correct position by hanging off the bike a bit. I am riding most of the time with my weight on the pegs and not on the seat. The race tires gave me the confidence to lean over farther and go a bit faster. You have to have the confidence to go fast.

Mike
I agree. I have to make a point when riding to pick my butt up off the seat. I try to do it even when not riding fast just to make a habit of it. The only other thing that holds me back is confidence in the tire, bike and suspension being able to hold the road. With my Duc Im still not quite comfortable but on my R6 I just know that the bike will handle more lean than I can. I think its just because I rode alot more mile on the. Hopfully I will get there with the Ducati as well
 

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so I didn't really read this thread all the way through.. sorry if a repost, but I have had some trouble with cornerspeed.... but mainly after highspeed 150+... I learned to look through the corner (this will help a lot).. I'm talking way ahead...where I want to be in the next turn. b4 I get on my bike there are 2 hand written stickers (duck tape), 1 says LOOK AHEAD and the other says FASTER (it's over the speedo). You shouldn't be looking at your speedometer.... watch your brake markers.. I also get off the bike more... upright=fighting the bike, off the bike=fluid... don't make more than 1 correction per corner.. ie.. don't brake twice or gas on gas off then on again, maintain speed. Other than that, practice, practice, practice. Just have fun!
 

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i know this seems somewhat out of place and may not seem true... but if your properly setup a corner (and you aren't racing someone at that moment) the idea of "slow in, fast out" applies. basicly, if you come screaming into a corner and late brake like crazy, your using a lot of your tire's avaliable traction for braking and not for turning. if your going around a corner at the maxium speed, you couldn't brake or accelerate, and you can feel the tires right on the edge of giving away, but not quite (maybe 5% slip... its hard to guess numbers like this) so if your practicing corner speed, don't go in a mach one... but push your entry speed up just a little each time. then you can make small adjustments during the corner to feel the tires. if you can accelerate during the turn, you can take that corner with more speed.
second... get on a great set of tires with a progressive break away. my favorite is the Pirelli diabo corsa... they may not have the ultimate grip that the race tires have... but they heat up quickly and when the are going to give up they give you a lot of feedback beforehand. once you know you can fully trust them, you can start to have a little faith (much different from trust) and put the bike in the corner faster than you may have been comfortable with. if you feel your going to blow your line... grit your teeth, look for your exit markers, lean it in and hold on. 99% of the time you'll make it through, and now you have set yourself a new corner speed. another thing that helps it riding with someone faster. they don't have magic tires... so if you try hard enough, you can be that quick too.
good luck. and remember... unless your hamfisted on the throttle, if you bin it, its probably going to be an easy lowside and not do to much damage to you or the bike. if you are terrified of crashing, that will hinder your riding.
 

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I really have nothing to add to the discussion. Seems the guys have pretty much covered all the bases.

Two solid tips.

*If you know a faster rider, ask them to follow you for two laps. Go as fast as you usually do, then he gets in front of you and increases SLIGHTLY.
My time on a local track went down from 1:27-1.28 to 1.20 in ONE DAY when doing that.

*Start braking earlier. Set your speed before the turn in and adjust while on the way in.

Here is a little pic to keep you motivated
 
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