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Discussion Starter #1
Listers,

Since I write an investment, finance, and economics blog, I thought I would
take a look at Ducati’s yearend financials. They were posted yesterday. As
most of you know, Ducati lost money in 2005 after a small profit in 2004.
But even worse, Ducati’s total revenues fell by 11% in 2005.

The Earnings Release stated:

“Revenues for 2005 were Euro 320.8 million, down 11.7% compared to 2004.
This was due to the reduction in motorcycle volumes, combined with an
unfavourable mix. Revenues from motorcycles for the period decreased 13.1%
to Euro 247.2 million and accounted for 77.1% of total revenues.
Motorcycle-related products, including spare parts, accessories and apparel,
were Euro 70.4 million, down by 3.8% over previous year.’

“Gross margin for 2005 amounted to Euro 58.5 million or 18.2% of revenues
versus Euro 86.7 million or 23.8% last year, caused by a reduction in
motorcycle volumes, a negative product mix and as well as extraordinary
devaluation of approximately Euro 15.0 million.“
Ducati did not even have a positive EBIT (Earnings before Interest and
Taxes). Companies that do not have profits often use EBITDA (Earnings before
Interest expense, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization). You saw a lot of
use of EBITDA from the dot com companies that weren’t turning a profit.
Here, Ducati fell short on EBIT alone.

Ducati mentioned “unfavourable” product mix as one reason for poor results.
Here was there motorcycle mix in 2005:
Motorcycle product % Change
mix:

Superbike 6,094 10,213 (40.3%)
Supersport 1,030 1,426 (27.8%)
Sport Naked 16,585 18,026 (8.0%)
Sport Touring 1,397 2,997 (53.4%)
Multistrada 6,156 3,898 57.9%
Sport Classic 3,274 0 n.a.

Total 34,536 36,560 (5.5%)

Superbike and sport touring got killed. Even Monster sales were down. Higher
price bikes probably have higher margins and the lack of sales in these
categories brought Ducati down. Multistradas were the only area where sales
improved. But they were way up. As an anecdote, when I stop by PJ’s Triumph Ducati here in Albuquerque, the bikes I see being delivered to smiling
customers are Multistradas and Sport Classics. I think the burnt orange
Sport is hot, but I live in a one-bike family.

I made it a goal for my blog to learn more about the motorcycle industry and
write about it. I also am trying to learn more about the Chinese motorcycle
industry. But information can be hard to come by. China made over 17 million
motorcycles last year.

Ducati is taking some steps to improve financials and the steps are outlined
in the earnings release. Cutting costs, another public offering. I should
talk to my local idea about what else Ducati is looking at.

If anyone has some tips or inside scoop about the business end of Ducati let
me know. I will post all I learn to the Ducati list and my blog. Writing
about motorcycles is more fun than writing about interest rate movement,
inverted yield curves and trade deficits.

Also, anyone have any first hand experience with the new Cyclecat Center
stand? I need one and I have used Pitbulls in the past. But Cyclecat is a
list sponsor and I would like to buy one from there if the stand is as good
as advertised. Even it costs more.

Rob Feightner
2005 999 (I love this machine! I can’t wait to get closer to sea level and
get some more horsies!)
Albuquerque, NM 6,000-8000 feet above sea level
http://desertoftherealecononomicanalysis.blogspot.com/
 

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Quantum11 said:
Listers,


Also, anyone have any first hand experience with the new Cyclecat Center
stand? I need one and I have used Pitbulls in the past. But Cyclecat is a
list sponsor and I would like to buy one from there if the stand is as good
as advertised. Even it costs more.
I have one and don't care for it. It is made to lift the bike when on the side stand. I always have my bike in a wheel chock. The stand can not be used to lift the rear when the bike is upright as the stand tilts to side when lowered.

If interested, make me an offer + cost of shipping.
Thanks.
 

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Financials

Thanks for the very interesting post. I had no concept of how few bikes Ducati sells. My understanding is that Sam Zell's syndicate sold it back to an Italian group.

nsanders
'94 BMW R1100rsl
'06 ST3s
 

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Quantum11 said:
Multistradas were the only area where sales
improved. But they were way up.

I also am trying to learn more about the Chinese motorcycle
industry. But information can be hard to come by. China made over 17 million
motorcycles last year.
From what hear around here you wouldn't think 2 people bought a Multi :)

Just got back from another 3 week trip to China, felt like there was 17 million different brands too, and on most the engine looks strangely like an old Honda 125 4-stroke. It's really the only (and scooters) affordable mode of transportation other than bicycles, bus, or walking.
 

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Ducati has figured out a way to increase their margins for 06 in the superbike category. You can't buy the monoposto in the base 999 model, all you can get is the biposto. They think you will bump another 6 or 7 grand to lose the seat. Wow, great thinking. I suppose you can say part of that goes to the Ohlins suspension, but evenso, it priced me out of the market. I don't like the looks of the biposto bike.

Ducati has the bad and justifiable rap of being to expensive to maintain. There are many naysayers out there badmouthing them enough on the net to scare away potential customers. Unless you do your own maintenance, I don't blame people for not buying them. Why would you want to buy one of their sport tour bikes when you have to do valve adjustments every 6k miles? Putting a lot of miles on a Ducati is detrimental financially.

Ducati should come out with an I/4 and offer it as well as the twin.
 

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John said:
Ducati has the bad and justifiable rap of being to expensive to maintain.... Unless you do your own maintenance, I don't blame people for not buying them. Why would you want to buy one of their sport tour bikes when you have to do valve adjustments every 6k miles? Putting a lot of miles on a Ducati is detrimental financially.
Ducati should come out with an I/4 and offer it as well as the twin.
I have an in-line 4 Ducati designed by Tamburini, its called an MV... :)

I also have an ST3.... the reason you want a Ducati sports tourer is 1/ its Ducati; 2/ its the best sports tourer on the market; 3/ they don't cost that much more to maintain... and 4/ its the best sports tourer on the market; 5... its a DUCATI.. 6/ it does not have VTEC....... 7/ its not Japanese............

DocMV
 

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Very informative post, but not surprising. About 10 months ago I posted on the old Duc-MS that Ducati had secured about a 100 million Euro syndicated loan for operating capital. I noted that the $ came from a number of banks, not just one. Indicated to me, at least, that Ducati's future was risky, so much so that one bank did not want to fund the entire loan.

IMHO from the consumer side there are a number of reasons why Ducati is tanking [yes boys, take the pain, Ducati is tanking]:

1) Some bad designs. People in here can say what they want in defense of their particular favorite, but considering how many bikes are sold in the U.S. market, one has to ask "Why aren't Ducati's selling?"

IMHO design is part of the problem. For example, the 999 looks nice and it has grown on Duc fans, but many have gone on to other brands because the 999 looks kind of like the Japanese bikes. As to the biggest market for the 999, the regular Joe, that shopper is not going to appreciate the cachet and history of a Duc, they will simply say "Gee, the R1, Honda, or Suzuki look kinda the same as the 999, might as well go with the Japanese bike for $8000 less."

2) Which brings the next reason sales are down. I went looking at the 2006 R1's [I have an 02]. I am always SHOCKED at the prices, having been so used to Duc prices.

A new 2006 R1 for $10.5k out the door. What's a 999, $19-20k out the door? Assuming the biggest market for superbikes is the casual rider, meaning "non-track day" types, IMHO they will not see any reason to shell out 80 to 100 percent more for a Duc. And as to the salesmen who actually has to "sell" his brand, I can just imagine what they say when the guy looking at a Honda asks the Honda sales guy "I am thinking about this Honda or the Ducati 999, what do you think of the Ducati?"

3) Ducs also have a horrible reputation for good customer service. Ducati does not stand behind the product. The Net is overflowing with horror stories of former Duc owners who have told thousands on the Net that their Ducs broke down, and when they did, the dealers looked for ways to get out of having to honor the warranty, and when they could not, repairs took weeks to months for the buyer to get the bike back. And worse, if owners complained to Ducati North America, DNA would do nothing to help.

Those kinds of stories have circulated for so long, IMHO such have destroyed Ducati's image. Basically, Ducati's image is that 1) Ducs break down; 2) they are expensive to repair; and 3) if they do break down, dealer service is horrible. Even on Duc-MS these types of stories are commonplace.

And compounding the problem, Ducati has completely failed to do anything to improve it's image. It's almost as if they have their heads in the sand and refuse to believe their is a problem.

Consider this: Duc-MS has about 5000 members. That's a lot considering how few Ducati owners there are. You would think DNA would have one of its employees become a liaison and Duc-MS member. That person could field questions and address people's concerns. Could even do some PR. But there are no DNA reps on this site. If there are, they do not publicize it. To me, that shows their lack of vision and business sense.

4) Lastly, Ducs have a poor reputation on upkeep. The average Joe knows two things about $, a Duc will cost a lot to buy and will cost a lot to maintain. Any other bike can run 30,000 miles with only oil changes. But not a Ducati.

Label all this gossip, rumor or unfounded assumptions, it does not matter, for this is what the majority of bike purchasers know when shopping on a Saturday for that mid-life crisis superbike or the fastest/coolest bike on the road. [albeit, as far as I know, guys in their twenties are not buying $20 thousand bikes just to be cool, they cannot afford them].

So that is how I see it. I said before that Ducati was in financial trouble because of the way its syndicated loan was structured. Your post validates what I said 10 months ago.

I hope I am wrong when saying that in a few years, Ducati may not even be around. Sounds ridiculous, but as company size goes, it is not that big a business. I think before I said it was just barely above mom & pop size corporations. So it going under is not like imagining Ford or GM tanking [and heck, even GM may bust based on recent events].

With car manufacturers and airlines tanking every six months or so, it should not be that difficult to picture Ducati going the way of Pan Am or American Motors, especially with such piss poor numbers [that you posted].

They need someone to go in there and redo the company from the janitor up to the President. They need to do what Harley Davidson did back in the late 80's and 90's

Harley knew that their bikes sucked and that people were not buying them because they were crap. Sales were way down and the bike was going to go the way of the Indian. HD completely redesigned the engine [Evolution engine] and engineered the product so that things would last.

They then marketed the bikes with an admission their old bikes sucked, but to "try out our new bikes." They even had ads that said "no more leaks" because their old designs had loads of oil leaks.

They then had their dealers provide excellent customer service. I had a friend who had one of the 1994 then-new Harleys. He took it in to get fixed, they were quick to respond and he got his bike back each time in about 2 days.

________________________________________

Here is what Ducati said in 2005 for their 2004 Annual Report:

Ducati Announces Full Year and Fourth Quarter 2004 Results

Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. (NYSE: DMH, Borsa Italiana S.p.A: DMH), a leading manufacturer of high performance motorcycles, today announced full year and fourth quarter 2004 financial results.

Revenues for 2004 were Euro 382.8 million, up 1.0% excluding forex effects, (or down 1.4% including forex effects) versus last year. Revenues from motorcycles decreased 4.4% to Euro 302.2 million and represented 78.9% of revenues. Motorcycle-related products, including spare parts, technical accessories and apparel, increased 8.2% to Euro 75.0 million against last year.

Gross margin for 2004 was 36.0% versus last year's 34.7%, thanks to product cost reduction, operational efficiencies and related product sales increase, partly offset by a negative forex effect. EBITDA was Euro 39.1 million, or 10.2% of revenues, up 2.3% excluding forex effects (or down 13.5% including forex effects), versus Euro 45.2 million of the previous yea,. mainly due to increased sales costs.

At EBT level, the result was a loss of Euro 1.8 million versus break-even in 2003, due to a lower EBITDA, which was partially offset by lower depreciation and financial charges.

The Company's net debt on December 31, 2004 was Euro 115.9 million, down against Euro 117.2 million on December 31, 2003. The company's gearing ratio was 75% on December 31, 2004 versus 74% on the same date a year earlier.

Unofficial Ducati worldwide registrations for 2004 were down 5.2% versus last year, with France down 1%, Italy down 6%, UK down 13%, Benelux down 17%, Japan down 19%, Germany down 20%, while Spain was up 33%, the US was up 15% and Australia was up 8%.

"2004 was a challenging year for Ducati. The continuing weakness of the dollar and the difficult market conditions in Germany, France, UK and Japan together with the delay in the introduction of the new Monster S2R weighed heavily on both sales and registrations", said Federico Minoli, President and CEO of Ducati Motor Holding. "However, the company concluded 2004 with excellent fourth quarter results and 2 podiums in the MotoGP championship, which are both promising results for the coming year. The success of the presentation of the new Superbike, the arrival of the Monster S2R and the great excitement around the new Multistrada 620 all give us a year to look forward to with confidence".

"We expect to close 2004 with a net loss of approximately 8 million Euro, due to current and deferred income taxes", added Enrico D'Onofrio, Chief Financial Officer of Ducati. "We are finalizing the refinancing of the bond which is expiring by the end of May 2005. The company is evaluating all possible financial instruments including a new bond issue in the range of 100 Million Euros."

Revenues for the fourth quarter of 2004 were Euro 114.8 million, up 16.2% excluding forex effects, (or up 10.8% including forex effects) over the same period in 2003, due to higher bike sales.

Gross margin for the fourth quarter was 33.4% of revenues, in line with the previous year. EBITDA was Euro 13.0 million, compared to Euro 14.3 million in 2003, due to a negative forex effect and higher sales costs.

Results before tax for the fourth quarter of 2004 were a profit of Euro 8.0 million versus Euro 7.1 million last year. This increase is mainly due to lower financial charges.

Fourth quarter 2004 financial results were approved by the Board of Director on February 10, 2005.

By the end of the year 2004, the Company had re-purchased 3,769,249 shares, equivalent to Euro 3,283,016 or 2.37% of its stock capital.
 

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Having looked over their financials for the last few years I'm surprised they are still in business. As Roto says if someone doesn't come in and make some big changes the will be out of business in the very near future.
 

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Won't the Italian government bail them out again?

Everyone should be saving up to buy spare bikes to use as spares.

This marque is getting insanely expensive :).
 

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1.Ducati has never made money. Period. They have been bailed out of trouble ( not unlike any other domestic industrial) many times.

2. For the first time, under the TPG consortium they went public, so now there are a different set of rules in play, but they will not "be out of the future in the near future." Fifty years of history argues against this.

3. They will never make money as long as they put so much reliance on the Superbike portion of the product line. Ride a Monster and then a Superbike.
Is the Superbike twice as much fun ? Arguably not, as the market has shown.
I believe that the new Hypermoto will give them another bike to sell at a reasonable price. They will need to sell two of them to equal the profit of a single Superbike, but they just might make some friends instead.






smegtheprez said:
Having looked over their financials for the last few years I'm surprised they are still in business. As Roto says if someone doesn't come in and make some big changes the will be out of business in the very near future.
 

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bevel450 said:
1.Ducati has never made money. Period. They have been bailed out of trouble ( not unlike any other domestic industrial) many times.

2. For the first time, under the TPG consortium they went public, so now there are a different set of rules in play, but they will not "be out of the future in the near future." Fifty years of history argues against this.

3. They will never make money as long as they put so much reliance on the Superbike portion of the product line. Ride a Monster and then a Superbike.
Is the Superbike twice as much fun ? Arguably not, as the market has shown.
I believe that the new Hypermoto will give them another bike to sell at a reasonable price. They will need to sell two of them to equal the profit of a single Superbike, but they just might make some friends instead.
Excellent points and valid, albeit I disagree that they can't tank.

At some point, unless things change, Ducati is going to run out of investors and lenders to bail them out. Why?

Mainly because investors want something for their money, aka profits or a good return. The "bailer outers" could give a rip about history, heritage, cachet, or the coolness factor.

As for lenders, they are not going to continue loaning money to Ducati with numbers like those posted in 2004-2005.

Not sure if it can be done or if Duc is willing, but they need to dramatically decrease their prices and improve the Brand's poor image, especially in areas of dependability and dealer service [aka "stand behind the stuff they make"].

In terms of standing behind their product, if I were in charge I would be all over this and other sites, identifying myself as a DNA rep and addressing people's complaints about dealer service, etc. No way I would want people posting on sites information about how crappy dealers are and how uncaring DNA is when complints are received.

Customer service is important in vehicle sales. But Ducati does not seem to notice or give a rip. How important is it?

Well, consider that BMW and Mercedes include in their warranty coverage FREE 24 hour towing and road service. The reason they do this was "exposed" in the 80's. I say "exposed" because the free "rapid response" towing was not offered out of concern for the stalled driver.

Mercedes noted that public perceptions of their cars as being reliable and a quality product was paramount, so much so that they did NOT want to the public to see a Mercedes broken down on the side of the road.

So they came up with the free towing angle, not to help the Mercedes owner stranded on the road, but to get the car out of sight as quickly as possible so other drivers would not see a Mercedes with its hood up.

Ducati can change nothing if they want to remain a small "boutique" brand. But there is only so much of that type of business to go around [where manufacturers of "luxury" goods are attempting to get a consumer's disposable income]. And if they want to continue with the boutique approach, they are going to have to watch the money carefully and not make any mistakes [such as the 9XX failed redesign to the 999].
 

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funny how only the 998 owners calls the 999 a failed redesign.
 

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kaos said:
funny how only the 998 owners calls the 999 a failed redesign.
It's not just me. I would not let 998 ownership influence my opinion on the 999. If I personally liked the 999, I would go buy one and keep the 998.

Are you contending that the 999 is a success and was well-received when it came out? And on what do you base it is ONLY 998 owners calling the 999 a failed design?

Actually, since Duc-MS has been around, many non-998 Duc-MS members have described the 999 as a failed design. Even Ducati and the dealers have acknowledged such fact: 1) Ducati by making styling changes and explaining why sales are not there; and 2) dealers when noting the 999s are not "flying out the door" and they have excess inventory that they have to sell at a discount.

The bottom line, IMHO, is that the redesign did not increase sales of the 9XX and on its debut the motorcycle community spent more time debating liking or disliking the new design. IMHO if it was not a failed design, the community would spend time praising the 999's styling, not criticizing it.

Moreover, again IMHO, with the redesign Ducati got rid of a key feature the Company had going for it, classic styling. The redesign caused the bike to "blend in" with all the other brands of superbikes, at least to the everyday average Joe with $10k to $20k to buy a bike for reasons other than what the bikes are truly all about [in other words for reasons other than specs and engineering].

I do think that there is legitimacy in redesigning a model that has been around for 10 years or more, and the 999 is becoming more accepted as time passes, but I stand by my opinion that in 2003-2004 the 999 did not impress, nor did the styling excite the masses.

Out of Context, here is a puff piece article on Duc sales in 2006. But I don't give too much weight to trumpeting one month's sales.

DUCATI NORTH AMERICA STARTS NEW YEAR POSTING LANDMARK 80 PERCENT SALES INCREASE FOR JANUARY 2006

Cupertino, CA - February 15, 2006 - Ducati, the Italian motorcycle company world famous for crafting high-performance race, street, and touring bikes, announced a record-breaking start to 2006, posting an 80-percent sales increase for the month of January. The strong sales numbers generated by Ducati North America are a bright spot for the global motorcycle manufacturer, Ducati Motor Holding, with the North American subsidiary continuing to find success. This comes from the introduction of the retro-inspired SportClassic line-up and the new Monster S2R 1000. This summer they will debut their most powerful naked bike ever, the highly anticipated Monster S4Rs.

After reestablishing their superbike dominance in North America with the successful introduction of their red-hot 999R flagship in 2005, Ducati North America took their growth to all-time highs by exploring untapped market segments with several other new bikes. By expanding their popular Monster line-up with the powerful and affordable Monster S2R and Monster S2R1000 introductions, Ducati North America dispelled the notion they were only a superbike manufacturer. Their work introducing the easy-riding Multistrada 620 only affirmed the company's new commitment to growth.

"The 999R introduction showed that Ducati is and always will be about crafting high-performance racing bikes," says Michael Lock, CEO of Ducati North America. "But Ducati is also proving we can build our Monster line-up with the successes of the S2R, S2R1000, and the upcoming Monster S4Rs. We're really enjoying the momentum we've experienced early this year from these bikes and our popular SportClassics. There's no doubt 2006 will be a year to remember here at Ducati North America."

Ducati North America's landmark year in 2005 and successes early in 2006 are evidenced by a 56-percent overall increase in total Ducati sales for the last six months according to data published by the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC). Other notable statistics include Ducati North America eclipsing fellow European brands BMW and Triumph in on-highway sales and market share for the month. Solid growth in sales of their 501-750cc sport bike category also posted an impressive 140-percent gain compared to the same time last year. Founded in 1926, Ducati builds racing-inspired motorcycles characterized by unique engine features, innovative design, advanced engineering and overall technical excellence. The Company produces motorcycles in six market segments which vary in their technical and design features and intended customers: Superbike, Supersport, Monster, Sport Touring, Multistrada and the new SportClassic. The Company's motorcycles are sold in more than 60 countries worldwide, with a primary focus in the Western European, Japan and North American markets. Ducati has won thirteen of the last fifteen World Superbike Championship titles and more individual victories than the competition put together. For more information about the Company, please visit our web site at www.ducatiusa.com.
 

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RotoRooterGuy said:
Actually, since Duc-MS has been around, many non-998 Duc-MS members have described the 999 as a failed design. Even Ducati and the dealers have acknowledged such fact.

Ducati by making styling changes and explaining why sales are not there, dealers when noting the 999s are not "flying out the door" and they have excess inventory that they have to sell at a discount.
The 916 generation bikes ... they have never had excess inventory that had to be discounted by dealers?

What would be the correct definition of a "failed design?"

How important is bike design to a corporation?

If Design is important to the bottom line, then every single bike Ducati has created has failed in its design.... that's because none have ever sold enough to cover expenses.

It's the forest, not the trees.
 

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On a more important note, since when has profitability been important to Ducati?

According to Bevel, it has never made money in the past... which is a key point.

It has never made money in the past, and yet it continues to produce "great motorcycles."

WORRY is the best thing Ducati has had going for it in the past, and it is the best thing it has going for it today.

As long as everyone has something to worry about, then we can be assured that Ducati will continue to produce great bikes.

As far as profitability and business survival is concerned, Ducati has something going for it that is obviously not reflected in its financial statements. Identifying what this "mystery" is that's keeping them alive throughout history is a far more 'interesting' topic to discuss than profitability or design.

Worry is good. The day they have enough confidence to stop worrying ... is the day we as enthusiasts should.
 

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migz123 said:
What would be the correct definition of a "failed design?"
Er, perhaps one where the president of the company came out and alluded to it?

Federico Minoli:

"It's a divisive bike. Somebody liked it very much, somebody did not like it very much. And so, of course, we are looking at a substitute. But when and how, we still don't know. But I think that the new one will be more in the sign of tradition of Ducati. "

Don't mean to be a burr in yer breeches here, but Minoli is recognizing that the design is "divisive." Meaning it's divided enthusiasts between loving it and hating it. While not everyone who loves Ducatis chose to buy a 748/9x6 superbike, it didn't draw near the criticism that the 999 has. In fact, I don't recall ever having seen the older superbikes described as anything but beautiful. And the 916 won awards for bike of the year and bike of the decade (that decade being the 90's). The 999 just hasn't enjoyed the same level of acclaim from either Ducatisti or the media that the 916 did.

He's also acknowledging, obtusely, that the 999 is not "in the sign of tradition of Ducati." Reading between the lines, I hear him saying "we tried something new and innovative, and it didn't resonate with our customer base...so we're going to go back to something more like what we've done in the past." I wouldn't be surprised to see a superbike two or three years down the road that looks MV-esque.

I don't agree with the 999-bashers, migz. You know that. I actually find a lot about the design, both functionally and aesthetically, that appeals to me. But I can't deny that it's reception has been lackluster. That having been said, I think if Ducati is using the 916 as the benchmark for a "successful" design, they're going to have a helluva hard time ever having another successful one.
 

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Actually Rob -- that little piece about Minoli was great news for everyone.

It fits right into the whole big picture about Ducati, which is repetitive in its history ... like Groundhog Day :) We should all actually percieve that as good news. Remember the Paso ... it was scorned by Ducati and dealers. It was only a 'warm-up' for the great bikes that followed it.
 

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Failed design is one that doesn't get people to give up their wallets in exchange for the product a the price point targeted by management in their profit plan.

BTW, the 999 is deeply discounted by many dealers. The phenomenon is not new to any model. Some markets allow sticker price. Other market find the dealer wondering why he ordered more than one of a particluar model.




migz123 said:
The 916 generation bikes ... they have never had excess inventory that had to be discounted by dealers?

What would be the correct definition of a "failed design?"

How important is bike design to a corporation?

If Design is important to the bottom line, then every single bike Ducati has created has failed in its design.... that's because none have ever sold enough to cover expenses.

It's the forest, not the trees.
 

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bevel450 said:
Failed design is one that doesn't get people to give up their wallets in exchange for the product a the price point targeted by management in their profit plan.
That would be failed PRICING :D ... or perhaps some other mathematical error. Not design. They couldn't do it with the 916... and neither could they today. So their "failure" is somewhere else.
 

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Okay Migz....you get to redeem yourself on this one. Reveal to us what this "mystery" is that you refer to. Come on. You know the answer. And if you don't, then you have no qualification to make the statements that you have thus far.



migz123 said:
On a more important note, since when has profitability been important to Ducati?

According to Bevel, it has never made money in the past... which is a key point.

As far as profitability and business survival is concerned, Ducati has something going for it that is obviously not reflected in its financial statements. Identifying what this "mystery" is that's keeping them alive throughout history is a far more 'interesting' topic to discuss than profitability or design.
 
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