Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum banner

1 - 20 of 63 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello all

I have drastically modified the inlet tracts of a HYM1100 engine and while not finished tuning the main fuel maps yet, I most likely will have to tune for the acceleration enrichment too.
Anyone knows how this function is implemented/works on IAW5AM ?
It will also be helpfull in screening out some logged data points.

I use the Biposto SC1000 .xdf and .bin attached, which present a "Fuel phase/Accel enrich/Transient" and a probable "Correction Throttle Movement" map, but I'm not sure what these values are, or how they are used to modify the final fuel value.
Any info will be gratefully appreciated.

Cheers
 

Attachments

·
Excel Addict
Joined
·
5,085 Posts
Hello all

I have drastically modified the inlet tracts of a HYM1100 engine and while not finished tuning the main fuel maps yet, I most likely will have to tune for the acceleration enrichment too.
Anyone knows how this function is implemented/works on IAW5AM ?
It will also be helpfull in screening out some logged data points.

I use the Biposto SC1000 .xdf and .bin attached, which present a "Fuel phase/Accel enrich/Transient" and a probable "Correction Throttle Movement" map, but I'm not sure what these values are, or how they are used to modify the final fuel value.
Any info will be gratefully appreciated.

Cheers
Hi Angelo.

Can you send me a log file that used the bin you posted please.
You have my email from years ago.

Meinolf would probably. be able to give you the best answer to your acceleration question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hi Angelo.

Can you send me a log file that used the bin you posted please.
You have my email from years ago.

Meinolf would probably. be able to give you the best answer to your acceleration question.
Hi Richard.
It's been a long time...

Haven't tested this particular one .bin yet.
Do you want an earlier log with the relevant .bin ?
There are two versions of this (earlier) log :
A) Raw, no translation of throttle mVs to degrees opening and
B) Translated mVs to deg.
Smoothed AFR and throttle opening.
Calculated rate of throttle movement.

I see you are studying Python.
I've written some code for logged data processing in C.
Works just fine .
If it helps, I could prepare a flowchart of how I do it and send it too.

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,516 Posts
on the first page of meinolf's 59m thread he said he hadn't seen an acceleration enrichment table in 59/am ecu, not like the earlier ecu had had. i wonder if the processor speed is a factor?

i'd be surprised if it makes a lot of difference. the main issue is that you need to compensate for the change in airflow at any given throttle opening, so once the steady state fuelling is correct the transitional i don't think will need to be much different. i fitted a set of 50mm throttles from a 4v that kaemna had modifed to a 1000ss, and i think i added 10% across the bottom of the fuel map to allow for the increased airflow at any given opening and it surprisingly seemed about right. think it got dp cams too, now that i think about it.
 

·
Excel Addict
Joined
·
5,085 Posts
Hi Richard.
It's been a long time...

Haven't tested this particular one .bin yet.
Do you want an earlier log with the relevant .bin ?
There are two versions of this (earlier) log :
A) Raw, no translation of throttle mVs to degrees opening and
B) Translated mVs to deg.
Smoothed AFR and throttle opening.
Calculated rate of throttle movement.

I see you are studying Python.
I've written some code for logged data processing in C.
Works just fine .
If it helps, I could prepare a flowchart of how I do it and send it too.

Cheers
Actually the bin does not really matter.
I would just like to see your lodged data to plug that into my workbook to see how you are travelling with AFR.

Python - at my age (64) I vowed I would not learn something new like Python. but then I cannot help myself!

Maths, well Excel, is an obsession for my work and non-work stuff.
Google Sheets is extremely cool as well as it has some functions not yet in Excel.
I do heaps for my work in Excel and Google sheets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
on the first page of meinolf's 59m thread he said he hadn't seen an acceleration enrichment table in 59/am ecu, not like the earlier ecu had had. i wonder if the processor speed is a factor?

i'd be surprised if it makes a lot of difference. the main issue is that you need to compensate for the change in airflow at any given throttle opening, so once the steady state fuelling is correct the transitional i don't think will need to be much different. i fitted a set of 50mm throttles from a 4v that kaemna had modifed to a 1000ss, and i think i added 10% across the bottom of the fuel map to allow for the increased airflow at any given opening and it surprisingly seemed about right. think it got dp cams too, now that i think about it.
I've found Meinolf's thread you mentioned and it seems my original question is not valid:frown2:
Somewhere else he refers to Beard's final - for the 1198S - .xdf , from which, the maps I asked for info in my first post, are deleted.
So, case is pretty much closed.

Only one question (may be irrelevant) remains in my mind :
When I first fired her up, using the stock Biposto .bin - meaning +30% fuel everywhere on account of yellow (749/999) injectors instead of the brown ones, with the slightest blip of the throttle it revved more like a Honda RC 166 250 six rather than a Duc. - it was super cool, if not of any practical value.
This stopped when I set the fuelling low down (up to 2500 RPM) to produce about 13.2 AFR. which was optimal for smooth idle and pick-up and led me to conclude that, a good portion of the fuel wets the inlet tract walls instead of getting into the combustion chamber with fast throttle opening.
Anyway, I'm far from finished with the main maps to start testing for fast throttle changes.
I'll let you all know if I find something definite on this.

Richard, you have mail.
I hope you can make some sense out of these.
Else, please ask me.

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Hi Angelo,

long time no see. I trust you are well and found time to walk the Camino de Santiago.

As to the subject at hand. Whenever I delved into Duc BINs and the associated XDFs I deleted or corrected the parameters which were erroneously named. The XDFs I did touch are on Beards website.

The 5AM does have several throttle change speed related parameters. The ones I found most useful are the °/s TPS change speed threshold values, below which the accel (& decel) enrichment is inactive. The picture (Guzzi BIN) has all those parameters.

Send me a email (my address is unchanged) or PM and I'd be happy to share the disassembled BIN. I'm sure that finding the respective code and parameters in a Duc BIN is no big challenge for you.

Yia sou
Meinolf
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Hi Angelo,

long time no see. I trust you are well and found time to walk the Camino de Santiago.

As to the subject at hand. Whenever I delved into Duc BINs and the associated XDFs I deleted or corrected the parameters which were erroneously named. The XDFs I did touch are on Beards website.

The 5AM does have several throttle change speed related parameters. The ones I found most useful are the °/s TPS change speed threshold values, below which the accel (& decel) enrichment is inactive. The picture (Guzzi BIN) has all those parameters.

Send me a email (my address is unchanged) or PM and I'd be happy to share the disassembled BIN. I'm sure that finding the respective code and parameters in a Duc BIN is no big challenge for you.

Yia sou
Meinolf
Hi Meinolf,

I was hoping to meet you at the latest Guzzisti Gathering in Patras 2-3 weeks ago:frown2:

Naah, I can see you've made immense progress with assembly that left me far behind, the result of your methodical vs my casual approach.
I'll give it a go though.

I'll send you some pictures too, from the project I was working on for the last couple of years :
the 1100SS " Rápida" track bike .:eek:

Tschüß
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Hello Angelo,

how are you finding the AFR with Eng temp increase from say 50 to 75? Did you increase correction as it climbed? Looks like you have, I had to with my 1000DS.

I used a 1100MTS xdf to look at your main fuel, how come the values are so low is that because of the injector change?

I too have been testing "Fuel Phase/Accel enrich /Tran" as it's labeled. Comparing spikes and dips in AFR from off the stop to pick-up mostly.

If you get any address (hex) for any of what Meinolf commented on would you pass them on it might help me find them in my 1000DS xdf which isn't the same as any 1100.

A recent significant change for mine was with ignition timing, mine had a obvious dip in a main area when viewed as graph. I took that out to look more flowing, one point I added 9 deg of advance is was that much of a dip. The 1100 all be it requiring and being different didn't seem to have the dip. Mine's a 2003 1000MTS.

Thanks,
Steve.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Hi Steve,
Hello Angelo,

how are you finding the AFR with Eng temp increase from say 50 to 75? Did you increase correction as it climbed? Looks like you have, I had to with my 1000DS.
Didn't go there yet. I'm still trying to tune the main fuel map. I log only when the engine is thoroughly hot (guess over 75-80 C)
I used a 1100MTS xdf to look at your main fuel, how come the values are so low is that because of the injector change?
Yes, the yellow ones have 30% more flow, plus I increased the fuel pressure somewhat for better atomization.
I too have been testing "Fuel Phase/Accel enrich /Tran" as it's labeled. Comparing spikes and dips in AFR from off the stop to pick-up mostly.
I believe this table is for fuel phase only. Very similar to a S4RS .bin I examined.
Any positive conclusions on the dips/spikes ?
If you get any address (hex) for any of what Meinolf commented on would you pass them on it might help me find them in my 1000DS xdf which isn't the same as any 1100.
Meinolf's are fine for Guzzis . Although Richard or Meinolf is your best bet, if you're not in a hurry, I could have a go at the .xdf and .bin you are using. Sometimes I too enjoy a bit of detective work.

A recent significant change for mine was with ignition timing, mine had a obvious dip in a main area when viewed as graph. I took that out to look more flowing, one point I added 9 deg of advance is was that much of a dip. The 1100 all be it requiring and being different didn't seem to have the dip. Mine's a 2003 1000MTS.
I think timing is closely related to Volumetric Efficiency - if it has a bump at a certain area, it follows that advance decreases there.You can see what I mean, if you look at the full throttle timing at the peak torque (Max V.E.) region (about 4 cells) : you'd expect the advance to increase with revs, to maintain a constant burn period, but as V.E. (hence flame speed) increases too, the net result is constant timing.
What I would do is, to look at the Fuel Map (the original) together with rpm to see if the dip you found is justified or not.
Then again it may be there for emissions or noise reasons:confused:
Thanks,
Steve.
Cheers,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
I see.

Here in the UK out on the road I can have a day at eng temp 60 and another at 75-80 so I've seen my AFR lean off.

I've added a few tables to my xdf and also applied Meinolf air temp correction.

Taking out that timing dip or step along with putting approx 2 deg advance everywhere gave me 3rd gear front wheel lift that I wasn't really seeing before.

Yes the spikes are less as I pick up the throttle again. It's very smooth at that now.

I fitted a toggle switch between diag output and 2 OBDII. I can switch logging between front and rear as I ride. But another LC-2 has gone down on me.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sZ-R3ecEvQlUfGjYFGq-Fpu3yiuQnKRK/view?usp=sharing

STD Main ignition pic:
 

Attachments

·
Excel Addict
Joined
·
5,085 Posts
Taking out that timing dip or step along with putting approx 2 deg advance everywhere gave me 3rd gear front wheel lift that I wasn't really seeing before.

STD Main ignition pic:
Did the original main fuel table have corresponding dips?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,516 Posts
even though they're dual spark, some of those spark maps have so little advance in the lower throttle tange that you wonder how they don't use a shitload of fuel. or maybe they do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
.....
Taking out that timing dip or step along with putting approx 2 deg advance everywhere gave me 3rd gear front wheel lift that I wasn't really seeing before.
....
Any chance of you noticing a change in the exhaust sound ?

Notice on the screenshot upload I posted of the original timing @ 3200 the advance at 24tps is half that of 29tps :surprise:
Intriguing !
It's worth checking, if that dip is present on other bins too.
My Fuel Phase map ( 1st post ) is quite different, although I've seen bins with the same value all across this map .

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Yes the slightest change in exhaust note.

All bins for the 1000DS whether it's for a HW103 (2003) or a HW610 (2004 on) and even the DP have that step in the ignition.

Also all bins for the 1000DS have the same Fuel Phase of 120 across the board.

The 1100MTS don't have that dramatic step in the ignition although the timing is different and the 1100MTS have a varying Fuel Phase too.

I've been distracted with sorting the shift in AFR with the warmer weather here in the UK, it follows engine temp more than anything else say air pressure or air temp. Adjusting the fuel engine temp correction wasn't responding as I thought it would. I thought I had it right if you watch the AFR from cold to 90 degrees at idle but not so, even taking into account and waiting for the end of the fuel warm up period.

I might switch from HW103 to a HW610 as I have an equivalent xdf with the same tables available.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Just a thought, fuel evaporation, the percentage of the injected fuel that can actually be burned (small enough droplets), is more closely related to inlet/combustion chamber/cylinder walls temperatures than to whatever the oil temp. sensor reads.
If you'd log the output of a thermocouple washer under the spark plug, you might find a closer correlation of the AFR shift to this, than to the oil temperature.
 

·
Excel Addict
Joined
·
5,085 Posts
Just a thought, fuel evaporation, the percentage of the injected fuel that can actually be burned (small enough droplets), is more closely related to inlet/combustion chamber/cylinder walls temperatures than to whatever the oil temp. sensor reads.
If you'd log the output of a thermocouple washer under the spark plug, you might find a closer correlation of the AFR shift to this, than to the oil temperature.
The temperature sensor used by the ECU for fuel temp correction is on the cylinder head.
Oil temp is for the display/dash.
 
1 - 20 of 63 Posts
Top