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Discussion Starter #1
Greetings,
i'm looking to do a complete engine swap in my 02 998.
Proposed motor going in is a 2003 999s. - will this work - my research so far says Yes, but I'd love to hear from you guys
Items I know i'll need to rework:
Lower exhaust to clear deep sump of motor.
Coils ? can I ditch the 999 sparkplug coils and just use the frame mounted 998 coils?
ECU - I'm currently running a 996R/998 Ducati Performance ECU - can I still use this for the 999s motor?

I appreciate your assistance in advance,

J.R.
 

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It's a direct engine swap, and you can run the stock exhaust, but it will hit the sump. Have a muffler shop modify it if touching the sump makes you uncomfortable. At the very least wrap the exhaust where it hits the sump.

998 coils work
You will want a Euro 998S eprom to put in your 1.6M ECU. Ask TomTom for a 998S eeprom(map). His will be better than OEM.
 

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998 has the 59m ecu. you need a 998s ecu, which is the same as the 996r ecu.

but all 998 59m dp ecu had "996r" on the small white sticker. the larger red / white dp sticker defines what it actually is (unless it has fallen off). if your base model 998 does have a true 996r ecu it is wrong.

you can flash a 998s file into the ecu you have.
 

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Yes it'll work. I've done it and kept the 54mm termi kit that was already on the 998 engine without modification. I swapped to coil sticks, but you can keep the stock coils and wires if desired. I didn't change anything ECU related, although my bike has a DP 996R ECU.


I also made a thread with a similar title here on Ducati.MS if you want to search.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Nizmo - fantastic article and thanks for sharing the link - great to see what you've done --
My story with my 998 is long and drawn out, and I'll bore you with it if you're game! I bought my 998 in 2003 with 456 miles on it, and it now has ~15000 miles on it of which 10k was on the track.
It was my main track bike for years - (swapping back and forth between track and street set ups) track= BST wheels - track skins - separate fuel tank - instrument cluster, etc. In 2012 while stationed in Mobile Al, I moved up to Control Rider with Nesba - and my track mileage per weekend went up easily by 3x. Which lead me to the path of a building an R6 - to become my main track bike. The 998 took a back seat to the R6 - even tho the 998 was a great bike to instruct on - torque is easier and more flexible to teach with - maint. cost and plain ease of riding made the R6 the work horse.

In 2013 the 998 was in need of a new clutch - which prompted purchasing a Ducabike slipper - I'd always just used stock parts up to now - and this is where all the problems began. It was never quite right - Over the next multiple of years the the clutch gave me fits - burning up clutch packs - and I usually parked it and rode the R6.

2 years ago I got serious to fix the 998 - My first problems was the clutch was eating thru clutch packs in 750-1000 miles - (as the pack quickly wore - it would just spin with RPMs going sky high) - After a ton of stack height playing/new plates/(and burning them up on a single conservative test ride), I found that the clutch MC was not completely releasing and in essence was constantly "slipping" the clutch. A new brembo MC cured that, but the problem then manifested into the clutch not releasing properly - click the bike in gear and the bike would start to creep even with the lever pulled in. More stack height adjustments cured that but more troubleshooting revealed that the clutch output bearing that is pressed to the inside of the RH engine case has some radial play -- which according to A&S cycles in Roseville - is causing the clutch to not perform as it should.

Their recommendation is new engine cases, @ $5K

So, I'm looking for a quality used motor - I believe I've sourced a low mileage 999s motor - so we'll see how this all shakes out.

I've given up the track day gig - and sold my R6 this past fall. I purchased a Yamaha Tracer 900GT and absolutely love the thing. But I do want to the get the 998 right. I don't want it to just sit in the garage a disintegrate. I actually would mind being able to take for a Sunday morning ride every once in a while. It deserves to breathe and stretch its legs!
 

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That's a hell of a story. I'm sorry to hear about the clutch giving you fits. I'm not one to shit on shops or dealerships openly, because sometimes things can be lost in translation, however what you've been told doesn't seem correct in any sense at all.

First of all, the suggestion that you need new engine cases because a bearing is bad is idiotic. If the bearing is bad, change the bearing, that's why they can be pressed in and out. Secondly, if you had bad radial run out on the primary drive/clutch drive bearing, you'd probably have ruined the oil seal and noticed a leak after riding on it like this for multiple years. Either way, you can easily replace the bearing if need be. I'd wager that bearing being bad couldn't cause the symptoms you describe anyway. Moving along.

So let's get this figured out the proper way before we're buying engines on some guy's suggestion who sounds like he knows not what the fuck he's doing.

Symptoms - What you described of the faulty clutch master cylinder sounds plausible, I've seen it many times. The master cylinder internal valve does not allow the pressure to be released back into the reservoir. This causing too much 'resting pressure' in the clutch hydraulics and makes the clutch slip or hydraulic fluid start to leak. Replacing the master cylinder was the right call.

If you're now having an issue where the bike is creeping forward even with the clutch lever pulled completely in, you have one of the following problems:
1: The clutch hydraulics have not been bled properly, so when you pull in the lever, you actually compressing air in the system which prevents the pressure plate from being properly pushed off of the clutch discs. This is why the bike continues to creep forward in gear even with the clutch pulled in. Bleed the clutch hydraulics again. A genuine brembo master cylinder should have a bleed valve on it.

2: The slave cylinder is failing and allowing air into the system when you pull and release the clutch lever. This ultimately causes the same symptoms as #1. Bleed the clutch.

3: The new clutch master cylinder piston isn't adjusted properly meaning when you pull the lever you're not actually getting the proper amount of throw on the piston. This results in the piston only moving a little bit, and BARELY lifting the pressure plate off the clutch discs, but still not enough to let the bike roll easily with the clutch lever pulled in. If you bought a genuine brembo unit, this is very unlikely. Go back to problems 1 and 2.

4. Get the manual for the clutch, stack the plates according to the manual. The only way the clutch is causing drag is if the stack height is WAY too tall. This is almost impossible unless you've started adding plates that didn't come with the clutch. But I know how it goes when you're chasing problems and 'trying anything and everything', so put it back to how the book says it should be. Let's not create new problems trying to fix old ones.

Before we get into the whole bearing possibly being or not being bad, let's get the clutch sorted first. Once you've done ALL of the above report back with your findings and let's get this thing fixed. I promise you don't need an engine.
 

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FYI, I had the same creeping clutch issue on my track 999S and I fixed it bleeding the clutch fluid and a thorough clean and stack height adjustment.

Fully agree, bleeding the clutch is a boring pita and you have to do it several times, over and over.

I had the best success with connecting a clear hose and let it gravity bleed for a couple of hours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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999 has a bleeder inside the reservoir - the little 6mm hex. they benefit from bleeding there regularly.
True, but he's saying he's not got a brembo m/c that I'm assuming is 998 style. If it's an RCS unit or something similar it'll have a little bleeder valve on the top. Same as the 999, only the RCS reservoir will be remote, not mounted to the reservoir bolt.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you all for your input - it is always great to bounce this stuff off of other folks.

Forgive me - a lot of time has gone by trying to fix this issue - since I don't rely on it for transportation - kids/wife/job/ and now the virus take up a lot time so the 998 gets put on the back burner.

To put it into perspective:
Prior to the bike going into A&S:

Entire Clutch Hyd system replaced:
New Brembo RCS16/18 MC installed
New Ducabike slave cyl
New HEL steel braided line
New Throw-out bearing

Multiple stack height troubleshooting as per Ducabike's instructions - and Bellisimoto's phone con stack height suggestions.
Bled the system - repeatedly, and repeatedly

Bike symptom: drop the bike into 1st gear and the bike would slowly creep - with clutch handle pulled in - agreed Pressure plate not disengaging properly - not allowing the clutch to fully disengage from the motor

A&S cycles:
Troubleshot stack height - replaced the 2 convex plates and all of the friction plates.
Bike no longer creeped when placed in gear - but the clutch engagement and subsequent drive feeling was vague -
A&S further broke down into the clutch assembly - did a full tear down including removing the clutch housing where they found the clutch output shaft bearing to have radial play inside the engine case. Now then - I am suspect that RADIAL play would affect the clutch in this manner. AXIAL play - I'd agree - Axial play would mean the bearing was flexing in and out on the same path as the clutch is acting (i.e. horizontally). The Radial play means that the clutch output shaft is moving up and down (A&S showed me the "play" which was in thousandths of an inch- it was there, but slight).

The long and short of things, is _ I'm actually going to go test ride the bike today and try and get a better sense of how it is behaving.
Secondly - the Ducabike slipper clutch began all these problems - I think the way forward would be this:
Replace the clutch fluid with new (the fluid I used was excellent quality ATS blue -but wasn't brand new - fluid might have had some moisture in it)
If I'm still having problems - go back to a a non-slipper clutch - might just go back to all stock parts - and truly see how the clutch behaves -

I really do not want to replace the motor - or do a case replacement - I agree that the clutch problems are fixable - but A&S might have something in that the bearing is affecting the clutch's overall ability to do its job.

Love to hear your .02$

J.R.
 

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Love to hear your .02$
How about clutch rod lenght? Ducati have at least two lenghts. I needed to insert about 6mm bearing ball to clutch slave to get correct lenght for my slipper clutch. Bit hard to explain, maybe someone could do it better..

 

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Thank you all for your input - it is always great to bounce this stuff off of other folks.

Forgive me - a lot of time has gone by trying to fix this issue - since I don't rely on it for transportation - kids/wife/job/ and now the virus take up a lot time so the 998 gets put on the back burner.

To put it into perspective:
Prior to the bike going into A&S:

Entire Clutch Hyd system replaced:
New Brembo RCS16/18 MC installed
New Ducabike slave cyl
New HEL steel braided line
New Throw-out bearing

Multiple stack height troubleshooting as per Ducabike's instructions - and Bellisimoto's phone con stack height suggestions.
Bled the system - repeatedly, and repeatedly

Bike symptom: drop the bike into 1st gear and the bike would slowly creep - with clutch handle pulled in - agreed Pressure plate not disengaging properly - not allowing the clutch to fully disengage from the motor

A&S cycles:
Troubleshot stack height - replaced the 2 convex plates and all of the friction plates.
Bike no longer creeped when placed in gear - but the clutch engagement and subsequent drive feeling was vague -
A&S further broke down into the clutch assembly - did a full tear down including removing the clutch housing where they found the clutch output shaft bearing to have radial play inside the engine case. Now then - I am suspect that RADIAL play would affect the clutch in this manner. AXIAL play - I'd agree - Axial play would mean the bearing was flexing in and out on the same path as the clutch is acting (i.e. horizontally). The Radial play means that the clutch output shaft is moving up and down (A&S showed me the "play" which was in thousandths of an inch- it was there, but slight).

The long and short of things, is _ I'm actually going to go test ride the bike today and try and get a better sense of how it is behaving.
Secondly - the Ducabike slipper clutch began all these problems - I think the way forward would be this:
Replace the clutch fluid with new (the fluid I used was excellent quality ATS blue -but wasn't brand new - fluid might have had some moisture in it)
If I'm still having problems - go back to a a non-slipper clutch - might just go back to all stock parts - and truly see how the clutch behaves -

I really do not want to replace the motor - or do a case replacement - I agree that the clutch problems are fixable - but A&S might have something in that the bearing is affecting the clutch's overall ability to do its job.

Love to hear your .02$

J.R.
Sounds like you're on the right path for sure. I feel you on not having the needed time to do these things, we're paddling the same type of boat trust me.

If you've bled the clutch hydraulics thoroughly and this problem started with the introduction of the ducabike slipper, then let's start by reconfirming symptoms when you get a moment. Then verify that the slipper is indeed installed correctly and record the stack height. If the problem still persists, replace the entire clutch with a stock unit and recheck.
 

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The more threads I read about issues with slipper clutches, the more I'm inclined to stay away from them. However, I've always been intrigued by what the slipper can do for you in terms of the safety factor and mitigating rear-wheel hop and grabbing when downshifting into corners, especially those downhill higher speed sweepers. I've always had good luck with stock Ducati dry clutch longevity.
 

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The more threads I read about issues with slipper clutches, the more I'm inclined to stay away from them.
Usually when you see thread about slipper clutch problems, it starts like this: "I bought used slipper clutch..", or "I bought project bike that came in boxes.."..or "I bought track bike thats been dropped and sit 15 years after that.."..or just " I took my slipper clutch to parts, put it back and now it doesn't work"..
Many people are so good mechanics, that they don't need any advice with these machines. And who the hell has time to google for manual when it's hurry to put the bike together. This spacer..probably doesn't need it..Clutch pack thickness..can't be too important etc..
If you buy slipper clutch, put it to bike like manual says it should be I am quite sure it will work. They are actually pretty simple device. I have one in my 996/1098 hybrid and also in my yz450f, can't live without those anymore ;)
 

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The more threads I read about issues with slipper clutches, the more I'm inclined to stay away from them. However, I've always been intrigued by what the slipper can do for you in terms of the safety factor and mitigating rear-wheel hop and grabbing when downshifting into corners, especially those downhill higher speed sweepers. I've always had good luck with stock Ducati dry clutch longevity.
On the road, they aren't necessary. That is, unless you are a freak and or an idiot on the road. On the track it is a different story. I've gotten use to the hop from 5th to 4th to 3rd at the track. (4th to 2nd, etc.) So 130mph down to 60mph in not too many feet with real bucking action. I picked up a slipper but I haven't tracked it and I can already tell you that I am extremely pleased with the result. I'll just choose my gear, brake into the corner, take my line, release the brake, and accelerate out. As opposed to the added calculation of massive engine braking and the hop. I put my time in without a the slipper and I know I will have faster lap times with one, and an overall better ride at the track.
 
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