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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,
I'm currently using the standard 2 pad calipers on the front of my 2002 998.

Is there a big gain in running the 4 pad calipers?
Better feel and braking power?

Might look at swapping my 2 pad calipers out with the 4 pads.

What you all think?
 

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When I switched mine from 2 pad to 4 pad I did not notice a big difference. The biggest improvement was the radial master.
 

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jules_1972 said:
Hi,
I'm currently using the standard 2 pad calipers on the front of my 2002 998.

Is there a big gain in running the 4 pad calipers?
Better feel and braking power?

Might look at swapping my 2 pad calipers out with the 4 pads.

What you all think?
the newer style 4 pads are MUCH better than the older style 2 pads. Put on a radial master with 4pads and say hello to 1 finger braking! :D
 

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Huh?

The difference is very minimal and probably not even noticable to the average rider. Unless you are racing competitively for cash, or a sponsor is buying them, save you money for else where.
 

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Dunlop said:
The difference is very minimal and probably not even noticable to the average rider. Unless you are racing competitively for cash, or a sponsor is buying them, save you money for else where.
I have raced the 2 and 4 pad calipers, Never noticed any differance, I have also raced with radial and stock master cyclinders, not much differance, I just bolted on these babies....now that was a huge differance. The biggest change I have seen with any brakes is the pads.

Ab
 

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Not that many of us need "race" parts or that many of us here are "racers" but for some reason alot of the top riders use BREMBO brakes.

Why would I want to stray from that type of quality, weather or not I am buying a "race" brake caliper :confused:

I have worked in the brake industry in the automotive world but not the motorcycle world. Everyone tries to copy Brembo on the automotive side and a bad copy is all they seem to come up with. Is this the same in the motorcycle world as well ?

AND yes (+1) the 4 pad calipers with the Brembo radial GP master (19 x 20) = 1 finger braking :D

AND yes (+1) different pads can make or break a braking setup.
 

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Ahhsk said:
ok, what are those babies? any links?
http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myProducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=116%7CDucati%20Brakes&productID=1488&showDetail=1&categoryID=117|Ducati%20Brake%20Calipers&vendoridtodisplay=0&filterFor=&collection=168%7CEuropean%20Motorcycle%20Parts

I put the 4 pad calipers on my Monster a few years ago. I thought it made a huge difference (but it had stock pads on the the old two pin calipers before the swap). Most of our customers say it was a huge difference as well.
 

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Brakes

We are sponsored by Performace Friction brakes, The manufacture 80 percent of the pads used in WSB/MotoGP. There top motorcycle guy advised me against the 4 pad calipers for racing. In there testing on/off the track with some of the worlds best riders the 4 pad calipers do not dicapte the heat from the pads as well as the 2 pad set up. when you look at the 2 an 4 pad size differance it makes sense. I have raced the 2 and 4 pad calipers, I did not notice any giant change in performance. When we are looking for a better fell on the brakes on short tight tracks we switch over to a 19x18 master, On bigger tracks with faster corners I like to use a 19x20 for a bit softer feel.
We did some testing with a few differant pads, this was my personnel feelings on them

1, Performance friction 95s pads, best overall feel, no fading
2, Vesrah rjl, Real close to the PF pads with a touch more inatial bite
3, Fedderao cp911, Caught on fire, lots of fade
4, Ebc HH, I would quit racing before i would use these

we tested them all on the same day with fresh rotors properly bedded in

link to PF
performancefriction.com email [email protected]

Link to PFM brakes
http://www.pfmbrakes.com

Aaron
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Just thinking that if Ducati done the research into the 4 pad system there must have been some benefit or one would think they wouldnt bother changing.

The rep at my local Ducati dealer tells me he put some 4 pad calipers on his 748 (not sure what pads) and he said it made a huge difference.

Maybe good sales pitch, but maybe some truth???
 

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jules_1972 said:
Just thinking that if Ducati done the research into the 4 pad system there must have been some benefit or one would think they wouldnt bother changing.

The rep at my local Ducati dealer tells me he put some 4 pad calipers on his 748 (not sure what pads) and he said it made a huge difference.

Maybe good sales pitch, but maybe some truth???
They were a stepping stone to the radial mount 2 pad calipers, Thats what I was told by the PF rep
 

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What drives me nuts is hearing how great one thing is from someone or they use a certain product and you know they are knowledgeable, such as Aaron, and then hearing something completely different from someone else who also is knowledgeable. For instance there are people who go with the EBC or the Ferrodo CP911. Gets me confused because I don't have the $$$ or the time to try out a bunch of different products such as brake pads but I would obviously like the best I can get for my track bike. Currently use the CP911 on recommendation from previous owner. Not sure if I could tell the difference between one pad and another.
 

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grendels_arm said:
What drives me nuts is hearing how great one thing is from someone or they use a certain product and you know they are knowledgeable, such as Aaron, and then hearing something completely different from someone else who also is knowledgeable. For instance there are people who go with the EBC or the Ferrodo CP911. Gets me confused because I don't have the $$$ or the time to try out a bunch of different products such as brake pads but I would obviously like the best I can get for my track bike. Currently use the CP911 on recommendation from previous owner. Not sure if I could tell the difference between one pad and another.

I am not saying what I know is right, When we tested brakes on our bikes it was A pretty long drawn out deal that involved alot of info and people. What it boiled down to was what I liked on the track. I was looking for a particular feel and when I found it I knew it right away. The reason I dont like the EBC pads is that with all the inatial bite/non linaeer pull there is not much margin for error in the braking zone. With less intial bite/linieer pull I can brake much deeper and more controlled (Butt cheeks are not puckerd..hair aint on fire) that allows me to spend more time concentrating on chasing someone down...or not getting run over
I have tried every realistic combo of brakes in my humble opionion I would race the 65mm 2 pad Brembos over the 4 pad Brembos.
We are coming to summit next weekend, stop by an see me, I will hook you up with some pads.

Aaron
 

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The 16th-18th with NESBA? I'll be there then. Or the 10-11?

I have the single-pin calipers with the cast iron rotors.
 

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grendels_arm said:
The 16th-18th with NESBA? I'll be there then. Or the 10-11?

I have the single-pin calipers with the cast iron rotors.
We will be there hopefully thursday eve,15th summit main and staying until the 18th with WERA. you remember what our trailer looks like
Ab
 

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The Real World of Greater Performance

Read this and see if it makes some common sense to you!




The Real World of Greater Performance:

Here’s where it really gets interesting: incorporated into the design of the new generation Radial Mount Calipers is the latest in braking technology led by two basic concepts. Of course there’s more to it than just this, but in an attempt to keep it simple, the elements can be effectively identified by these two separate yet related categories:
1. CALIPER STIFFNESS
2. BRAKE PAD DESIGN AND THE LEADING EDGE

Caliper Deflection:
The difference in deflection between the O.E. calipers and the dedicated racing caliper is remarkably quite large. Rigidity plays a major role here. And there’s also a surprising difference between the various O.E. manufacturers in this critical area of stiffness. Bear in mind that on a World Supersport spec heavy braker, we found vertical (up to down) pad taper, just a tenth of mm (.004”) but this is clearly representative of an existing problem. Under severe conditions, caliper deflection is manifest as either inconsistent braking performance and/or a somewhat vague feel at the brake lever. Other factors such as fluid integrity, i.e. relative to water saturation point and resultant resistance to fluid boil (wet vs. dry boiling point), plus backplate flatness and to a lesser extent, friction material compressibility all play a significant role here, too. This is clearly demonstrated on the research dyno where simply changing calipers on the test fixture (with same compound pad and rotor) equates to sometimes dramatically different friction level curves. This is much more pronounced with O.E. calipers than the high-end billet racing counter-parts…but in all fairness, the production O.E. calipers still do a very good job overall, particularly when cost is factored in.

Another fundamental and crucial difference here is with material and manufacturing techniques. Production machines invariably use mass produced cast calipers versus the race-bred gems found in SBK & MotoGP. Those are the real beauties, CNC machined from substantially higher tensile strength billet stock and often sporting ventilated Titanium pistons. The differences are again manifold but paramount is superior rigidity combined with a typically longer and narrower pad shape. The Narrow Track layout focuses the applied braking pressure over a somewhat smaller area, optimizing [in microseconds] the reaction time of the braking forces. Of course another advantage of the race specific calipers is their lighter weight due in large part again to the higher psi capabilities of the premium grade billet material.

With cost always an issue with production bikes; brake designers went back to the drawing boards to boost performance while keeping a bean counters check on cost considerations.

Brembo again forged the way forward with the introduction in late 2000 of their stunning Four Pad caliper, which found a home in both the Aprilia Mille and the Ducati 748 and 998 R models. These were the first of their kind using the individual pad per piston design in a mass produced production caliper. They wisely addressed the performance advantages of increased stiffness with the addition of a massive bridge over the top of the pad cavity opening, greatly increasing resistance to distortion.

PAD DESIGN, the Leading Edge:
The new generation Brembo 4 Piston Caliper design was then further enhanced by incorporating four separate pads operating with larger equal sized 34mm pistons (than their 30/34mm twin pin forerunner). The necessity of using differential bore piston diameters to reduce pad taper (fore and aft) became a moot point when switching to the short individual pad and piston arrangement. Greater piston area mated to a properly sized mastercylinder piston (ratio) improved performance values. But there’s an additional benefit to the individual pad/piston configuration: greater initial bite. Inevitably, as the pads friction material bears down on the rotor during braking, each leading edge acts with greater force than its trailing counterpart, adding additional grip in the process. Think of it in terms of the friction material trying to wedge into the rotor. More leading edges…more bite. Although this is for the most part noticeable mainly in the initial braking sequence, but the end result is another notch up the bar in performance levels. This fact is not new having been around in the Aftermarket for years. Companies like ISR, Harrison, PM and others have and continue to offer these in various combinations. Bear in mind however, you the consumer are going to pay for this improved performance with a notably higher pad replacement cost.

And now Tokico has taken this concept another step by incorporating a beautifully sculpted individual pad/piston design into the trick looking radial mount system, debuting on the new 2003 Kawasaki ultra ZX6R/RR and Suzuki with their revised GSX-R1000 assault weapon.

So bottom line, what does it mean to you the Sportbike enthusiast and weekend warrior? In simple terms, it’s stronger brakes. Evidently the O.E.’s think enough so to warrant down sizing the rotors to improve handling and turn-in performance via reduced rotating mass (less gyroscopic forces). It will surely be of interest to all to see how well these smaller, lighter rotors will like this arrangement. Rotors with less material mass and heat sink capability often suffer more from fatal thermal stress distortion.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Article sounds good to me, I have a 4 pad caliper set heading in my direction.

That was why I wondered why Ducati would use the 4 pads on the track bikes (I think) and on the 998R.
 

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Aaron,

Don't remember exactly. I saw it at the WERA event about a month ago and you were parked facing the middle street that leads out to the gate I believe. I was hanging out with some of the other MAD members who were racing that day.
 

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grendels_arm said:
Aaron,

Don't remember exactly. I saw it at the WERA event about a month ago and you were parked facing the middle street that leads out to the gate I believe. I was hanging out with some of the other MAD members who were racing that day.
That was us, We were talking with Mike C,

Here is some more common sense.
$350 4 pad calipers
$250 Radial master
$125 Goodrich lines
$600 Braketech rotors
$125 Brake pads
Getting passed on the brakes after you spent all tha money by an old fat guy on a beat up stock 748.....priceless
 

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Every time I get the urge to spend tons of money improving my bike thinking it will make me better I remember the saying in faster "It's 80% rider".

Aaron,

Do you have all those parts on your 748?
 
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