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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all,

Long time newb, first time posting.
I need some serious help with my 95 916 that has left me stranded. I was riding back from class a couple days ago when my bike started cutting out about 3000 rpm. Once the rpm got back to 1000 rpm or about idle the engine would rev again. If I kept the throttle rolled on, this back-and-forth revving would continue cycling with about a half second period. This "burping", as I will call it till better informed, started intermittently and would clear itself out at first. I was able to get another block until this "burping" became continuous. Next I noticed, that when I turned the bike power on and off (both through kill switch and key) the fuel pump was not priming some of the time. This came and went as I checked fuses and messed around the battery and solenoid connections. Finally, however, the fuel pump would refuse to prime no matter what, and still will not prime to this moment. I took my battery home and recharged it, and then towed my bike home the next day.
The bike still has the same symptoms with the recharged battery. All lites function, the engine will turn over, just no fuel pump priming sounds, and of course no continuous engine running.

Bike recent history and stuff:

I did electrical work on this bike, with the last "fix" about two hundred miles ago. I replaced the rectifier/regulator with another (looks identical)ducati rectifier/regulator that the previous owner gave me when I bought the bike two years ago. I also replaced the sub wiring harness with the notorious white connectors. Mine were nicely melted. Also I resoldered one of the yellow wires that run to the alternator (i think). The old one had melted through. This was the second time I resoldered melted through wires in this area. This last "fix" had seemed to work for two hundred miles, except I had on ocasions gotten a single "burp" or rpm cut-off that I was just trying to ignore and hoping would go away.

The bike is in Colorado, and has had a history of electrical issues, including the battery not recharging, thus the last fix. Also, the fuse box to the fuel injection computer melted on me once, and I replaced the fuse box.

I would appreciate any help out there, and sorry about the marathon post and newb status.

Thx,

Patrick
 

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You've read the 853/748 Stalling post right? Quite a bit of outstanding information in there that is right up your alley.

Good luck.


Matt :abduct:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hey Matt,

Yes I had read it, but that was when I thought I had an alternator problem and I didn't pay attention to the relay post. My symptoms at first glance look pretty different, but looking at the post again........The relays may be it. Thanks for the steerage, and I will get at my fuel pump, buy a voltmeter, I think it will come in handy, and check some relays.

I'll report back with any more info, but still feel free everyone to throw in thoughts before then.

P.
 

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gsangemino said:
I had a similar problem this summer with my 748 and it turned out to be the relay for the fuel pump.

Good luck,
Gerard
Similar problem with my 748 that I posted up about two years ago. Here's the link from the Ducati.ms Archive Forums

http://www.ducati.ms/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=superbikes&Number=126427&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

I think searching the archives is easier than searching on the new site. Plenty of god info there. Please post up your findings so we can continue to build a good "knowledge base". I still need to figure out what the heck is wrong with my 748 and then I'll follow-up with an answer to the aformentioned 748 /853 Stalling Problems post. http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=3819

"rubble, rubble, rubble..."

Hope this helps,
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks sEan and Gerard,

That archived article looks like a good source. I have already replaced the inline fuse under my seat awhile ago, just like one of the posters had to. I'm going to start digging into the bike this afternoon.

Two questions for you guys:

1. Should I buy a multimeter, vs a voltmeter?
2. Where is the general location of the fuel pump relay?

Thx,

P.
 

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Ptrick said:
Thanks sEan and Gerard,

That archived article looks like a good source. I have already replaced the inline fuse under my seat awhile ago, just like one of the posters had to. I'm going to start digging into the bike this afternoon.

Two questions for you guys:

1. Should I buy a multimeter, vs a voltmeter?
2. Where is the general location of the fuel pump relay?

Thx,

P.
I would buy a multimeter for versatility and the fuel pump relay is located directly under the seat. There are two. It's the black square component on the right side. Of course, I'm assuming the 916 electornics for the relay are the same as my 748 so you better look in the manual.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Still working this issue

Hey all,

This is my update for my bike status after a little work on the weekend.

I bought one standard relay (that part number listed in another post really helped at Autozone) and tried swapping it for the two relays (one which is for the fuel pump?) under the seat. No change in status. I was not able to find a replacement for the starter relay next to the battery holder. The relay info above really helped though, as I was able to see the coil causing the relay circuit engage when I took the plastic housing off. I completed the circuit manually and all my lites, etc. came on. Except the fuel pump did not prime, just like before. I have not put a multimeter on this relay pins yet. I'm still trying to jury rig a test connector.

A couple questions to the gallery:

Autozone said I may need to get a replacement for the starter relay at the dealer. Is this true? Does anyone know this part #?

If the relay visually seems to complete the circuit is it working fully, or is there some other issues that may be effecting the circuit?

Is there any danger of damage from manually connecting the relay circuit on and off several times for test reasons?

Thx all,

P.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok, Relays swapped, need help.

Hey all,

I'm looking for the next step in help for my baby. It's 80 degrees and sunny in Colorado, I wan't her back!

I bought a fuel pump relay, and swapped it out with both of the black boxes in back. No change that I can see. I bought a starter relay and swapped that out also, still same status:

Lites ok, ( well, except I noticed my right front turn signal isn't liting, and "clicking" at a different rate.)

Starter is still trying to engage, but no fuel pump priming.

I bought a multimeter but am just getting used to it so bear with. accross battery terminals, 11.6 V. I don't know if my relay measurements went well, but I think I got 1 Ohm accross the 87 - 30 pin.

Now I have my tank off and am looking at the fuel pump electrical connector. 4 pin? , how can I test the fuel pump now??

Multimeter??
Put a lead from my bike battery terminals directly to these little pins? which ones?

I don't have a bench or many tools, so I'm doing all this directly on the bike.

Oh boy, recipe for disaster? Well, I need some pretty basic help on testing a fuel pump priming.

Oh, and any advise on basics on not turning me or my Italian spoiled brat into a crispy critter would be appreciated.

Thx,

P "Non-conductive" trick
 

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Ptrick said:
...
Starter is still trying to engage, but no fuel pump priming.

I bought a multimeter but am just getting used to it so bear with. accross battery terminals, 11.6 V.
That is where your problem is!

Your battery is very low. Try chraging the battery first. If it does not go above 12.3 or 12.4, replace the battery.

-Fariborz
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks Fairboz,

I think the battery is just low because I have kept the bike on for about half an hour while testing stuff, but I will put it back on the charger tonight to test. I recharged it when I first started working on it......

but, you know, I don't think I have tested the new relays, had a fresh battery, and made sure my jerry rigged regulator sub wiring harness is connected at all the same time. I want to ride and maybe I'm not being patient enough with following up each fix.

I'll give it a try, and I'm going to be in contact with Sean to try some stuff too.

All of y'all have been great. I'll have to tell a story about some guy at the dealership getting told "don't trust the internet" while he was flopping down Benjamins for his new regulator. I feel confident that I have already saved hundreds, and that I will get this problem rite because of y'all.

Thx,

P.
 

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Ptrick said:
Thanks Fairboz,

I think the battery is just low because I have kept the bike on for about half an hour while testing stuff, but I will put it back on the charger tonight to test. I recharged it when I first started working on it......

but, you know, I don't think I have tested the new relays, had a fresh battery, and made sure my jerry rigged regulator sub wiring harness is connected at all the same time. I want to ride and maybe I'm not being patient enough with following up each fix.

I'll give it a try, and I'm going to be in contact with Sean to try some stuff too.

All of y'all have been great. I'll have to tell a story about some guy at the dealership getting told "don't trust the internet" while he was flopping down Benjamins for his new regulator. I feel confident that I have already saved hundreds, and that I will get this problem rite because of y'all.

Thx,

P.
You're spot on with the low voltage due to testing. Additionally, if 11.6v is enough for you to notice that the starter is "trying to engage", then there's enough juice for it to prime the FI via switching the relay. It's still too low and you may end up replacing it.

Certainly there's some validity to the comment "don't trust the internet", but it's more a matter of searching through all the BS to get an answer. This is the main reason I'd rather get in contact with you via telephone so we can communicate faster and more clearly(terminology, behavior description, etc) and solve your headache.

I love a good mystery!
 

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Ptrick,

Once the voltage gets to 11.6 volts, when you hit the starter button, the voltage further drops due to the current needs of the starter to turn the engine over. I am not sure what the voltage drop on your bike will be, but further voltage drop will affect the operation of the ECU and the rest of the electronics.

After you charge your battery, remove the headlight fuse during your testing. This will reduce the load on the battery.

Also try to turn your ignition to ON and OFF position few times. same with the emergency shut-off switch. The contacts in your ignition switch and the emergency switch might be dirty.

Let us know how you solve your problem.

-Fariborz
 

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Patrick,

First off, thanks for the opportunity to work with you. I have to admit that I kinda liked the phone troubleshooting method. It was well worth the experience since you and I are have different levels of experience which challenged both of us to work on our communication skills. Now, moving right along...
One thing we didn't do was take good notes. That's a lessons learned so this will be repetive. However, I also added a test that we did NOT perform.
  • Remove the left side Engine Managment Relay (The one that primes the FI) from it's strap.
  • Hold the relay between your index finger and your thumb and turn the key to the ON postion. FACT = Yours did NOT click.
  • Set meter to measure resistance(Ohms) with the handy beep mode enabled.
  • Touch the leads together to verify beep mode is enabled.
  • Unplug the 10 pin connector. This is the connector strapped to the right side of the subframe.
  • Unplug the left side Engine Managment Relay(The one that primes the FI).
  • Insert test probe lead into female pin 86. With the tab in the 12 o'clock position and the female connections facing towards you, pin 86 is located on the right side.
  • Touch the other test probe to pin 9 of the "male" 10 pin connector(This is the "bronco" wire aptly named for it's orange/dark blue color). With the tab in the 12 o'clock position and the male connections facing towards you, pin 9 is located on the bottom row, second from the right. FACT = VERIFY if the meter beeps
Moving right along....
  • Plug Engine Managment Relay back in.
  • Leave 10 pin connector unplugged.
  • Set your meter to read VDC (volts direct current) in te 20v range. Remember you can test the leads across the battery to verify the meter is set correctly.
  • Insert the red probe to pin 9 of the female 10 pin connector. It's a mirror image and once again, it will be the "bronco" wire coming out the back side.
  • Turn the key to the ON postion
  • Touch the black test probe lead to ground(Negative side). You should see source voltage. Remember, when I say source voltage I mean the voltage coming from the battery. Additionally, we're not too concerned if it's a little under 12 like 11.6 or so. Obviously 5v is way too low. FACT = What was the reading? I thought it was source.
  • Touch the same lead to the positve side of the battery. FACT = My voltage reading dropped off while yours read very close to source, correct?
Please perform the following test. We did NOT perform this one.
  • Leave 10 pin connector unplugged.
  • Set meter to measure resistance(Ohms) with the handy beep mode enabled.
  • Touch the leads together to verify beep mode is enabled.
  • Unplug connector from right side headlamp housing located just underneath and to the right of the water temp guage. This will expose a 4 pin male conncter on the headlamp housing. The 4 pin female goes to the right hand handlebar switch for your starter button and emergency kill switch.
  • Insert either test probe to pin 9 of the female 10 pin connector. Once again, the "bronco" wire.
  • Touch the other test probe lead to each of the 4 newly exposed pins on the male conncter. FACT= Which ones beeped? I'm expecting that the two inside pins beeped. The pins are stacked vertically so "inside" means number 2 and 3 regardless of which direction you count from(top or bottom).
Let me know how it turns out. We're pretty darn close to solving this. If any of you more experienced ducati.ms folks want to chime right in, feel free. I'm admittedly no expert, but I'm diving in head first and so is Patrick. Kudos to him.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Status

Hey all,

First of all, I would like to give out a big "Bravo Zulu" to Sean. He helped me tremendously on getting up to speed on the multimeter and on narrowing down my issue.

This is my newb diagnosis from the work Sean walked me through. My bike (95 916) is not getting juice to the left side Engine Management relay. Narrowing it down, I do not have continuity between the 10 pin connector sitting near the subframe/frame connection on the right side and the 30 amp master fuse sitting in the parallel fuse box.

I was sure that the problem (intermittent then complete failure of the fuel pump priming) was going to be related to the nasty melting I had with the yellow wires leaving the R/R sub harness going to the alternator, however this does not look like the case. At some point (different post probably) I will need to work on these also.

Once again, any input is welcome, and thanks a lot Sean, and I will do that last test this afternoon.

P.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Third test finished

Hey Sean,

I did the third of the three tests you put on the board. I did the test with key off, and all relays and fuses in except for the left ems relay.

The middle pins (4 pin male connector to start switch) did show resistance to the bronco wire (10 pin at frame junction) with a beep. It was difficult to get a 100 % visual, but I am 95% sure that only the middle two pins beeped, and the outside pins gave nothing.

Thx,

P.
 

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Patrick,

If there's continuity between the 10 pin female connector and the 4 pin male conncter on the headlamp housing, then the problem has to be in the right hand handlebar switch where the starter button and emergency kill switch are located. There are two screws located on the bottom of the switch housing. Once they're removed, it takes a little bit of finaggeling to get off the clip-on tube. If you're good with puzzles, you should have no problems.

I've had problems uploading an attachment(your 916's elctrical schematic) so PM me your email address and I'll send it to you that route.

Let us know the outcome of your findings,
 

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Discussion Starter #18
You the man!

I'll dig into my right hand kill/starter switch today even if I should be doing work and home work (its more fun when you are not supposed to be doing it).

Thx,

P.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Ok,

Latest update pasted from my pm to Sean:

Hey Sean,

I have the right handle bar piece seperated, and the semi circle rubber thingy unscrewed. The white and red? wire (wire to run switch) has a couple millimeter cut where you can see copper. The blue wire (other wire to run switch) looked pinched. I cut a little slit in the blue wire so I can reach the copper now.

Testing continuity between the four wires and the four prong wires seemed to work. Turning the run switch seemed to cut the continuity between the blue and red/white wire..... I think. I then tested continuity between the bronco wire on the 10 pin connector and the run switch wires and I got the beep. Next, I tested between the switch and the left ems relay. No beeps from any of the pins. Maybe I got a real quick beep from one of the pins?

I put on the relay and tried to get a click by throwing the run switch with power on. No click.

Am I testing these things correctly? I'm recharging the battery and thinking of what i'm trying to test. Hopefully I am close. It's snowing here, so I am thinking that a solution could be in site, since I wouldn't be able to ride yet. Murphy and all.

Thanks,

P.

P.s. Good stuff on the electrical diagram.

P.s. Go Avs!
 

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For these tests, you'll need some fine wire to stick in the female connector of the right handlebar switch. For test 3, it will help tremendously if the wire was long enough to wrap around the test probe so you can stick it in and use your free hands to push the starter button.

Orient the female connector with the tab on the left. From there, we'll call the pin at the top pin #1. Below are my test results.

* Kill Switch refers to the Emergency Kill Switch

Test 1 Kill Switch on
pin to pin Continuity(Y/N)
1-2 N
1-3 N
1-4 N
2-3 N
2-4 N
3-4 Y

Test 2Kill Switch off
pin to pin ConNo Con
1-2 N
1-3 N
1-4 N
2-3 N
2-4 N
3-4 N

Test 3Kill Switch on press starter button
pin to pin Con No Con
1-2 Y
1-3 N
1-4 N
2-3 N
2-4 N
3-4 Y

If your test results are exactly the same, then we've overlooked something.

Please, please, please FAIL!!!!

If the Stars lose the series, you're on your own. Actually, my results are as bad as the Stars.
 
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