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And, as of yet, I have not seen a single photo of the spot that was supposed to have lead to him losing control. How does one go about 'fixing the fucking hill, making it safer'? There was a bump. That's all I've read. Anywhere. So, you fix the bump. Then, as I explained earlier, they go faster. Because they can. Someone else crashes and is maimed or killed. Then what? Guardrails? Another injury/death. Air fences? Catch fences? They're racing the clock up a damned mountainside. In the grand scheme of things, what sense is there in doing it at all? You know, because that's not a terribly safe thing to do.
You can watch footage of the cars... I saw a few of them go lock to lock keeping control on that last sweeping corner - it was rough... not just A bump but maybe some washboard or other uneven surface over some distance.
 

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As much as I hate to see this, it was probably bound to happen once they paved the top portion. The freeze/thaw cycle at those elevations is murder on pavement, take a ride up nearby Mount Evans next year if you want a great example. There are dips in the road large enough to contain a small car, some of which didn't exist the previous year. They would probably have to tear out, regrade, and repave the upper section every year to make it safer for MC racing, which of course means everyone goes faster.

Sign of the times we live in. I imagine the only reason IOM TT still runs is because it brings gobs of money into that community every year, and is an MC only race.
 

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It's not that simple... performance and venue need to be matched. There's a reason why tracks are prepped... and there's a reason why performance restrictions are put in place for many classes of racing. It does matter if he's riding a bike with 4" of suspension or almost 8" if the track is such that 8" provides an increased amount of control. Alternatively... power level can be limited if 4" of suspension is being used on a track where that lack of suspension can lead to loss of control at rates beyond human ability to mitigate.

All other parts of the performance envelope being equal... more suspension results in better ability to manage uneven road surface at any given speed, and more ability of a skilled rider to manage those conditions.

IMO the answer isn't to stop bike racing... it's to manage risk better either through improved road prep or functional (not just a second order 'no clip-on' rule) limitations on performance to insure a reasonable level of risk for a highly skilled rider given the imperfect road surface.

It is that simple. Most everything you went over is under the control of the team building/setting up the machine. And, it doesn't change what I stated about the pilot pushing to the limit of himself and his machinery. 4" or 8" or 36" or suspension travel (to use your example); the pilot will push as far as he dares until he exceeds the limit. If he's lucky, when that happens, he escapes with only his ego suffering a small hit and figures out how to go faster the next time.

I agree that the answer isn't ending the bike runs. Each pilot needs (to continue) to manage their risks themselves. Don't feel 'safe'? Stop.

I do not agree about this so-called road prep since STILL nobody has provided any photo/video of the problem area. The road surface is what it is. In racing, it has always been about setting up the machine to beat the track better than the other guys do.
 

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Every year the TT track in the Isle of Man is inspected and repaired to a good standard to race on, if its a surface to be raced on, the least that can be expected is at least the surface is safe, how fast you ride is up to the rider.

What is 'safe', then? As I said, you're trying to go up a mountainside road faster than everyone else. What constitutes 'unsafe' constitutes 'safe'?
 

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All of the racers know the danger of the event. What is unacceptable is the lack of professionalism of the race itself. IOM TT has line of sight of the whole course by officials. PP is far from it. How long did it take to find Greg Tracy a few years ago? 10 minutes? 15 minutes? To put on an event like this is no small effort. But to half-ass it relying on the reputation of the event is disgusting. The current coverage is equivalent to calling for an ambulance for a crash on a track. Provide adequate support of marshals and medics. Also, don't cover up stories and throw out journalists for reporting facts. The race organizers are their own worst enemy.
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
Sign of the times we live in. I imagine the only reason IOM TT still runs is because it brings gobs of money into that community every year, and is an MC only race.
Sign of the times, indeed.
Although the economy of Colorado Springs is dependent on the military which employs one fifth of the work force in the area, its economy is broadly based and consequently not dependent on tourism with events such as Pikes Peak.

To a great extent, the same thing can be said of the Isle of Man. Because of low taxes, the Isle of Man's economy is supported by financial services, online gambling and manufacturing. Surprisingly, tourism does not play a big part of the Isle of Man's economy. However, the TT is a high-viz MC race which keeps it alive. But I wouldn't put it past the paternalistics to shut it down someday because of its lack of run-off. It's the nanny world we're forced to live in (and pay for).
 

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One of the reasons I encourage people to become a dues paying member of the AMA. The United States is increasingly hostile to motorcyclists, and I don't see any sign of that trend changing. It won't surprise me a bit if we start to hear talk of banning them in a decade or so, once the last of the boomers hang it up.

It has always seemed to me that some people use safety as a thin veneer over bigotry, and there's certainly enough of that aimed at riders of all types.
 

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What is 'safe', then? As I said, you're trying to go up a mountainside road faster than everyone else. What constitutes 'unsafe' constitutes 'safe'?
Well removing a huge bump on the riding line for a start. A good surface to race on for a start. Its the least they could have done.
 

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Sign of the times, indeed.
Although the economy of Colorado Springs is dependent on the military which employs one fifth of the work force in the area, its economy is broadly based and consequently not dependent on tourism with events such as Pikes Peak.

To a great extent, the same thing can be said of the Isle of Man. Because of low taxes, the Isle of Man's economy is supported by financial services, online gambling and manufacturing. Surprisingly, tourism does not play a big part of the Isle of Man's economy. However, the TT is a high-viz MC race which keeps it alive. But I wouldn't put it past the snowflakes to shut it down someday because of its lack of run-off. It's the nanny world we're forced to live in (and pay for).
What the hell do you mean by the "snowflakes" anyway?
 

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IOM has marshals around the circuit, all marshals have a line of sight to the marshals before them and after them. It's run like a race must be run. The IOM will keep going until no one turns up to race.
PP will not train/can't get enough marshals for the course therefore easier to can moto race.
 

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The reality is that most racing series where vehicle performance has outstripped the ability of the venue to provide a reasonable level of predictability to the surface have performance limits in place. The world, it seems, disagrees with the old school "stay off my lawn" folks... so arguing the point with them feels like a waste of time. I'm not saying anything there's not already a LOT of literature discussing. When physics far outpaces physiology you can't use "well REAL men" as an excuse to let people die needlessly... it's a silly argument and amounts to "we've always done it that way and I don't want it to change".

Also... the idea that there ever was an "unlimited" tolerance for folks getting killed racing is silly - what there was is a HIGHER tolerance. Since we understand the limits of human physiology a lot better than back then - it's pretty easy to understand when we're surpassing those limits and staying "unrestricted" is converting a skills based sport into a luck based sport where bad luck means you die.

So... complaining about the truck that's going to run you over anyway is pointless (the most likely outcome of absolute thinking is no motorcycles in PP). I'd vote for compromise - I'd prefer NOT to see motorcycles out of the race, so either make the track nominally safe for the given performance level or put suspension or power limits (or both) on the bikes. IMO that at least... IS simple.
 

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The hill as it stands is to dangerous in parts to race bikes. It needs repairs first. Repair the fucking hill, America lags behind the world in not only race riders, but quality race tracks that suit Motorcycles. Fix the fucking hill, make it safer, its an iconic race and needs to keep growing
"Fixing the fucking hill" won't change a thing ... participants will only go even faster yet because the track will permit higher speeds, and you can bet your ass that riders will take full advantage of that. As has been pointed out the racers will always push the limits of the track and the machines. Anyone else that has ever raced pretty much anything knows this. I know it, so do a number of other members here.

Racers die every year on perfectly groomed race courses that have grass runoff areas and air fences ... because they push the limits. That's the very point of racing in the first place, to be the one willing to push the outer limits of the track, the bike, and themselves. Deaths on track have nothing to do with the track itself, it has everything to do with racers not listening to their better judgement and riding over their heads, or making poor judgements ... Marco Simoncelli comes to mind ... he tried to add a third wheel to his motorcycle with his elbow when it wanted to low-side, but didn't take into consideration there were other riders on the track and he got hit by Colin Edward and Rossi when he crossed the racing line. Track's fault? No. Bike's fault? No. Other rider's fault? No. Helmet's fault? No. It came down to Marco making a bad judgement call and paying with his life for it. The two men I saw die at Ascot ... same thing. They got wound up in the spirit of the race and didn't listen to their better judgement.

So this idea of "Fix the fucking track!" won't fix anything. American riders or anyone else for that matter.

There is only one "fix" for this particular situation, and even that is a questionable action; Reduce the size/power of the motorcycles permitted to use on the Pikes Peak course. Reaction times that riders have are the limit here. Slow down the bikes, and the riders have more time to correct for bad judgement calls. Make the max displacement something like a 450cc single (or whatever, you readers get my point here). The motorcycles will be slower, which creates a greater amount of time to respond to an upset in the motorcycle's suspension or a "bad call" by the rider.

But even doing that won't completely mitigate the risk.

Dunne knew full well that the bump or hole (or whatever it was) was there ... he knew full well that the track had problems especially where he ate it. He knew of every risk along the entire length of the course. He knew there were massive drop offs, he knew his motorcycle had limits, he knew he had limits. He elected to ignore one or more of those limits for the sake of a win trophy and the accolades of being the fast guy on the course.

The entire issue comes down to his unwillingness to listen to his judgement. The entire sad story is 100% on him. No one else. No tangible ~thing~ else. No bad track. No under prepared bike. All on him and him alone. It has nothing to do with "America's bad tracks" ... or "America's bad riders" (both are bullshit anyway). It has everything to do with the spirit of the racer ... the will to push the limits to the 50/50 chance (or even higher) of riding beyond those limits to outperform all of the other riders in pursuit of a win.

Look how boring and lousy NASCAR has become. The risk factor has been all but eliminated. Consequently there is far less interest in it from a spectator's point of view ... and even worse, from a participant's point of view. Just like anything and everything that the mainstream do gooders get involved with it becomes homogenized and overly regulated ... which translates into boring.

If racing motorcycles was a safe/easy thing ... everyone would be doing it. But it's not safe nor easy. It takes courage, skill, money, and a will to outrun every other rider on the course. Without those elements the racer is just another "also ran". It's an accepted notion that winning means taking some risks. It's goes with the territory. It has great appeal to the human that wishes to be a champion and leave his mark on the world. One either accepts that idea, or doesn't. It's that simple.



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Question: Is there anyone on this forum who has raced a motorcycle and NOT exceeded their level of skill ? Every time I was ever on a track I know I did.
Agreed. I have to go above my level to improve. Now if I got too far over my level ill crash, but ill learn a helluva lot from it. Edit: Disclaimer: I DO NOT race.
 

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yES .I agree.that is good solution
IMO, Ducati cancelled PP race not because of a death but financial problems.As they changed Paris-Dakar race to Saudi Arabian this year, what you think the reason is, MONEY.Because of s....t arabian money can buy everything.
So, IMO, the really reason is not a death but MONEY..
 

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yES .I agree.that is good solution
IMO, Ducati cancelled PP race not because of a death but financial problems.As they changed Paris-Dakar race to Saudi Arabian this year, what you think the reason is, MONEY.Because of s....t arabian money can buy everything.
So, IMO, the really reason is not a death but MONEY..
Lol, conspiracy theory much?

Ducati didn't cancel the motorcycle race at pike's peak, the directors of the race did.
 
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