Ducati.ms - The Ultimate Ducati Forum banner
  • Hey Everyone! Enter your bike HERE to be a part of this months Bike of the Month Challenge!

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I found a local Ducati expert and dyno tuner. He is very familiar with the mapping issues down low and recommended a Rexxer dyno tune to disable the lambdas and clean up the map especially in the low RPM range on his Dynojet.

Is it worth the cash and time to do it??? I have seen some dyno sheets and it looks like there can be some significant gains in the 3-6k RPM range, right in the meat of street riding.

I have an AR GP2 slip on and BMC air filter with aftermarket carbon intakes. The bike runs pretty good but the dip feels significant when you are over 50% throttle in that lower range. I've tuned some bikes in the past with fantastic results but they were Japanese inline 4's. I'm just not familiar with these bikes and how much potential is locked up. Does it transform the bike?
 

·
Bon Vivant
Joined
·
11,454 Posts
so you've been a member of this forum for over 10 years and only posted 57 times... you should know most of what the rest of us know because there's an archive of threads on this very subject at the top of the streetfighter section, its called frequently asked questions or FAQ... you should check it out, I'm sure you'll find some info that is useful. only about 2 dozen threads on the subject - all still very much relevant.

But I will cut to the chase here - YES its not only worth it, with your exhaust system its mandatory. You could damage your engine running it too lean without some sort of adjustment to the tables. But understand that it isnt really about HP gains, it will not "transform the bike", its about the engine running properly and the low throttle opening ride-ability.

Do it!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,455 Posts
Start by having your bike run on his dyno. Look at the air fuel as it is too see what you might expect for gains and discuss what costs may be. If he uses Rexxer often and on these bikes he should be able to give you an idea.

If you spend time mostly at low rpm's and low throttle position then yes I often do see improvements in removing O2 sensors and richening up the O2 sensor range. The O2 sensors hold the bikes at a emissions standard level somewhere around 14-16 afr. You will get good mileage and the O2 sensor will keep the engiine safe even with a aftermarket slip on exhaust.

If you get the afr closer to 13.5 then the bike will smooth out and will gain power. Enough to make it worth the money spent is the question and it is hard to say without riding your bike to know how bad it is now. Have you tuned the bike including fuel injection recently? do not consider dyno work or re-mapping with a bike that iis not in tune as it is a waste of time and money. Always start with a well tuned bike first andd if it still could use some help then talk to the dyno operator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
so you've been a member of this forum for over 10 years and only posted 57 times... you should know most of what the rest of us know because there's an archive of threads on this very subject at the top of the streetfighter section, its called frequently asked questions or FAQ... you should check it out, I'm sure you'll find some info that is useful. only about 2 dozen threads on the subject - all still very much relevant.

But I will cut to the chase here - YES its not only worth it, with your exhaust system its mandatory. You could damage your engine running it too lean without some sort of adjustment to the tables. But understand that it isnt really about HP gains, it will not "transform the bike", its about the engine running properly and the low throttle opening ride-ability.

Do it!
Yes, I have read all 157 pages of threads and the FAQ multiple times. You could argue much of the feedback is from people who just spent a lot of cash to get their bike sorted skewing opinions. There are also a bunch of threads were certain bikes are worse than others (i.e. mapping updates in the newer models). Throw in the fact that while a chunk of the info is still relevant, many of the threads are a decade old now. I appreciate your input though. I would rather go into this with lower expectations.
Start by having your bike run on his dyno. Look at the air fuel as it is too see what you might expect for gains and discuss what costs may be. If he uses Rexxer often and on these bikes he should be able to give you an idea.

If you spend time mostly at low rpm's and low throttle position then yes I often do see improvements in removing O2 sensors and richening up the O2 sensor range. The O2 sensors hold the bikes at a emissions standard level somewhere around 14-16 afr. You will get good mileage and the O2 sensor will keep the engiine safe even with a aftermarket slip on exhaust.

If you get the afr closer to 13.5 then the bike will smooth out and will gain power. Enough to make it worth the money spent is the question and it is hard to say without riding your bike to know how bad it is now. Have you tuned the bike including fuel injection recently? do not consider dyno work or re-mapping with a bike that iis not in tune as it is a waste of time and money. Always start with a well tuned bike first andd if it still could use some help then talk to the dyno operator.
Thank you. It's the stock ECU and stock mapping at the moment, no tuning done yet at all.
 

·
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
I believe many who have tuned their bike's AFR here were looking to smooth the engine's lower RPMs to make it more ridable.
After the ECU was flashed/mapped at the Dyno shop and a PowerCommander+Autotune installed adjusting both cylinders the ride is still very uneven and unpractical below 4K.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,217 Posts
If you just want to make your bike more rideable in the below 5k rpm range then I suggest an ECU remap by Doug Lofgren...he will take in to account your mods and provide an appropriate map.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,455 Posts
The O2 sensors control fuel under about 4000 rpm. Get a race map that eliminates the O2 sensors and the bike will be much better. Keep the O2 sensor and any fuel autotune adds the O2 sensors with the stock ecu will take back. Rapidbike tries to use the stock O2 sensors to autotune the O2 sensor range but I have seen mixed results.

O2 sensor emulators do help but are not a true fix (better than nothing). Another test you can try is to simply unplug the O2 sensor and take it for a spin. The check engine light will be on and it is not a great solution but it will richen that area up to see if some extra fuel helps.

Having Doug put a Dp map with no O2 sensors is a good idea.
 

·
Bon Vivant
Joined
·
11,454 Posts
OK soggy glad you have had time to look at the tuning threads - and yeah its a mixed jumble of opinions and results. That is a big problem with any bike, its just that no 2 riders feel the same even on the same bike.

Ducvet is right, you have to start out with a bike that is in good running condition. From your initial post it seems that your tuner wants to use the rexxer to put the bike into closed loop mode so he can use another software system to tune from the bottom up. That is the best way to do it. You should gain some seat of the pants power but the big gain will be how well the bike runs. A lot of these bikes really ran bad from the factory, Mine was horrible. Dont be fooled into thinking a flash of a DP ECU will do the trick - the DP map is terrible. (most of the Rexxer flashes are copied DP maps)

I got a custom tuned ECU from Doug Lofgrin that was done on a different bike and it really improved my bike but it wasnt until I took it to Duc shop and had him actually tune MY bike on the dyno that it truly ran the way it should. And it is now running beautifully, and I'd dare say it runs better than about 90% of the SF's out there. (I dont mean power, I mean perfect throttle modulation)

I went through years and fix after fix after fix, not to mention the $$$, before my SF was the way I wanted it. Was it worth it? - absolutely.
 

·
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
This thread made me grab a laptop and connect it to the PowerCommand to see what was going on with the AFR and check if there is a space for an improvements.
I've mentioned that the Fuel maps for both cylinder were created at one of the local shops here in Los Angeles (I wish Doug's expertise would be available here):








While the Fuel maps were generated at the dyno shop I was able to set the Target AFR all by myself using the Dynojet Power Commander V application running on Windows laptop connected to the PCV via USB cable:




Below are the screenshots showing the "Trim" tables generated by Autotune that is connected to Power Commander and monitors the exhaust using two O2 sensors bolted into the exhaust pipes. It appears that most of the cells are clipped at the value 20 which is the maximum allowed number set in Autotune configurations (Autotune is configured to not add or subtract more than 20% from the values set in the Fuel table created my the mechanic at the Dyno shop):







According to the Power Commander documentation, I should be able to "accept the trims" merging the Trim table cells with the Fuel map's cells resetting both Trim tables cell to all zeros. So, next time the engine runs the Autotune will create the new Trim table values, but this time these values will be based on the updated by the previous merge Fuel maps. After a few runs the new Trim tables could be checked and merged again improving the Fuel maps even further. This cycle could be repeated indefinitely until Autotune stops creating new values for the Trim tables (which probably will never happen). It seems like I have a project for the near future...
 

·
Bon Vivant
Joined
·
11,454 Posts
Just to be clear, power commanders do not use their own tables, what you are looking at is a set of corrections to the ECU's map. The zeros mean no alteration is made to the table, the numbers are units of fuel that is added or subtracted from the ecu's numbers. You cant see the ECU's table here, only the alterations from that map

I'm surprised that you put a auto tune pc on top of a custom tune Sputs, do you think it improved over what the tech created on the dyno?
 

·
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Please correct me if I've got it wrong but from what I understand the Power Commander does indeed use its own AFR tables referred as "Fuel maps". PCV overrides the ECU's AFR managing role and takes a full control over the air/fuel mixture. The Dynojet mechanic tweaks the PCV's Fuel maps numbers for each table cell creating "a perfect map" for a given bike. The ECU only needs to be flashed (or opened) just to make sure it could be controlled by the Power Commander at the full RPM range. Otherwise the Power Commander would be able to control AFR above 5K RPM range only. By the time the ECU is flashed (opened) a custom AFR map could also be written to it overriding the stock one created at the factory (If you don't use Power Commander, this will be a map ECU uses to create AFR). But regardless whether or not the ECU is flashed the Dynojet mechanic is not able write to ECU table directly as the ECU is read-only. The Power Commander Fuel maps are edited instead.

The optional Autotune module with its "Trim tables" simply fine-tunes the Fuel maps created by the Dynojet mechanic. It adds and subtracts a small percentage from the numbers set in the Fuel map tables. Since it is expected that the Power Commander's Fuel map is close to be perfect the Autotune is limited to make only the small adjustments to the numbers (no larger than 20%). If Autotune trim table shows the values larger than 20% it is recommended to see a Dynojet mechanic to create a more accurate Fuel map at the dyno session.

The Fuel map that my mechanic created apparently is far from being perfect since there are tons of cells in the Trim tables that are clipped at 20% (the maximum allowed number for the adjustment). Instead of going back to Dynojet mechanic I will try to adjust the Fuel map by merging the Trim tables with the Fuel map after each ride expecting that sooner or later Autotune will stop adding or subtracting the large values to/from the Fuel tables.

Summary: There are four different set of maps involved. The first is the ECU's map. It ether is a stock map that was written at the factory or an aftermarket one if the ECU was flashed. The ECU's map is not used if the Power Commander was installed. Instead a Power Commander's Fuel map is used (there is a single Fuel map if PCV supports a single cylinder and there are two Fuel maps if the PCV unit supports two cylinders). Then, there is Autotune Target AFR table that is used to specify what target AFR you would like it to be. And finally, there is Autotune Trim table that is generated by Autotune to store the delta (difference) numbers needed to add/subtract from/to the Fuel map to reach the specified Target AFR number set in the Target AFR table.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,085 Posts
Cheapest way to get things better : 20$ cables from lonelec, guzzydiag or jgdiag or tuneecu to download the DP map in your ecu with lambdaS (O2 sensors) disabled.

Remove exhaust valve servo, remove charcoal canister crap and plug vacuum hose.

At this point for 20-40 bucks you may very well be satisfied with how your bike run.

If you feel there's room for improvement then get it tuned.
 

·
Bon Vivant
Joined
·
11,454 Posts
Please correct me if I've got it wrong but from what I understand the Power Commander does indeed use its own AFR tables referred as "Fuel maps". PCV overrides the ECU's AFR managing role and takes a full control over the air/fuel mixture. The Dynojet mechanic tweaks the PCV's Fuel maps numbers for each table cell creating "a perfect map" for a given bike. The ECU only needs to be flashed (or opened) just to make sure it could be controlled by the Power Commander at the full RPM range. Otherwise the Power Commander would be able to control AFR above 5K RPM range only. By the time the ECU is flashed (opened) a custom AFR map could also be written to it overriding the stock one created at the factory (If you don't use Power Commander, this will be a map ECU uses to create AFR). But regardless whether or not the ECU is flashed the Dynojet mechanic is not able write to ECU table directly as the ECU is read-only. The Power Commander Fuel maps are edited instead.

The optional Autotune module with its "Trim tables" simply fine-tunes the Fuel maps created by the Dynojet mechanic. It adds and subtracts a small percentage from the numbers set in the Fuel map tables. Since it is expected that the Power Commander's Fuel map is close to be perfect the Autotune is limited to make only the small adjustments to the numbers (no larger than 20%). If Autotune trim table shows the values larger than 20% it is recommended to see a Dynojet mechanic to create a more accurate Fuel map at the dyno session.

The Fuel map that my mechanic created apparently is far from being perfect since there are tons of cells in the Trim tables that are clipped at 20% (the maximum allowed number for the adjustment). Instead of going back to Dynojet mechanic I will try to adjust the Fuel map by merging the Trim tables with the Fuel map after each ride expecting that sooner or later Autotune will stop adding or subtracting the large values to/from the Fuel tables.

Summary: There are four different set of maps involved. The first is the ECU's map. It ether is a stock map that was written at the factory or an aftermarket one if the ECU was flashed. The ECU's map is not used if the Power Commander was installed. Instead a Power Commander's Fuel map is used (there is a single Fuel map if PCV supports a single cylinder and there are two Fuel maps if the PCV unit supports two cylinders). Then, there is Autotune Target AFR table that is used to specify what target AFR you would like it to be. And finally, there is Autotune Trim table that is generated by Autotune to store the delta (difference) numbers needed to add/subtract from/to the Fuel map to reach the specified Target AFR number set in the Target AFR table.
No sorry this is wrong. all the PC does is intercept the signal to the injectors and add or subtract from the main ECU table, it does not use its own maps. The PCV does not work without the factory ECU. The table the tuner creates is not a base table it is an adjustment table, The secondary table is that of the autotune, and the target AFR system is trying (very ineffectively) to correct the open loop portion of the map and override the o2 sensors.

In my experience a PC works great with ECUs that are 100% closed loop, Thats why its a good idea to use a rexxer or another device to flash the base ECU to closed loop and then tune the whole rev range. But IMO its a sloppy way to get around the problem, its much better to just tune the ECU and thats what guys like Doug Lofgrin and Mark at Ducshop can do.

I dont know what maps are available from guzzidiag but I'd bet that they are just DP copies and that is no help.
 

·
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Thanks for the clarification, Flyn! Here is another attempt to describe it more accurate... The factory ECU sends the AFR data to the injectors. Before the AFR data hits the injectors it is intercepted by Power Commander where it is compared against the Fuel maps created by the Dynojet tuner. If the optional Autotune module is installed then the AFR value taken from the tuner's map is further tweaked but within the maximum allowed range (usually at 20% max). PVC modifies the intercepted AFR data and sends it down to the injectors.

The closed loop ECU is a regular factory ECU that was previously flashed (with Rexxer or another similar device) to allow Power Commander to take a full control over the entire RPM range (100%). The closed loop ECU also allows its factory AFR map to be overwritten with a custom map created by the guys like Doug and Mark. With a well made ECU map there is no need for a Power Commander or another interceptor. It is the simplest and preferred way for many to tune their bikes AFRs.
 

·
Bon Vivant
Joined
·
11,454 Posts
Sputz, I cant really tell if you are confused about how it works or if you are just saying it in a way that confuses me. Either way we are not seeing it the same way. The tuners PCV map does not control the bike, it only adds or subtracts fuel from the base map settings. The PCV is a piggyback device it is not an ECU. maps are not compared only adjusted. I dont know how else to explain it to you but I think you are confused about how it works.
 

·
Retired Pipe Polisher C2H6O+
Joined
·
19,081 Posts
Thanks for the clarification, Flyn! Here is another attempt to describe it more accurate... The factory ECU sends the AFR data to the injectors. Before the AFR data hits the injectors it is intercepted by Power Commander where it is compared against the Fuel maps created by the Dynojet tuner. If the optional Autotune module is installed then the AFR value taken from the tuner's map is further tweaked but within the maximum allowed range (usually at 20% max). PVC modifies the intercepted AFR data and sends it down to the injectors.

The closed loop ECU is a regular factory ECU that was previously flashed (with Rexxer or another similar device) to allow Power Commander to take a full control over the entire RPM range (100%). The closed loop ECU also allows its factory AFR map to be overwritten with a custom map created by the guys like Doug and Mark. With a well made ECU map there is no need for a Power Commander or another interceptor. It is the simplest and preferred way for many to tune their bikes AFRs.
If I may. The first paragraph is close but not quite right. You’re making it too complicated.

The second paragraph about closed loop. Whew. No. Just no.

I’d love to try and give a simple cliff notes explanation. But.....

@Strega! Help! :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks again for the info. I may need some clarification though. I thought the Rexxer would allow you do make adjustments to the fuel and spark tables and write that tune to directly the factory ecu. This would be my tuner using his own Rexxer software. At that point a PCV would not be needed as that's just a piggyback and only manipulates the signal from the factory ECU.

I have been in contact with Doug Lofgren. I like the fact that he found issues with unmatched injectors but for not that much more money I can have the bike actually tuned on a dyno.

I'm going to call the tuner tomorrow and clarify the options again just to make sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,085 Posts
With a well made ECU map there is no need for a Power Commander or another interceptor. It is the simplest and preferred way for many to tune their bikes AFRs.
Partly agree. Auto tune (or closed loop) is preferable to account for temperature humidity barometric pressure and altitude.

Edit: corrected I meant closed not open loop.
 

·
Joined
·
1,767 Posts
Power Commander does add quite a complexity with all the wires and such. Then Autotune with two O2 sensors is another source of headache. PVC-to-Autotune connector is so loose and fragile it is hard to believe it was designed to be used on the motorcycle. Having the custom map baked straight into the ECU results to a much simpler and elegant solution. It also results to a shorter electric circuit and probably a faster data flow.
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top