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Discussion Starter #1
Who has actually done this? I have looked for threads but am not finding much. Here is what I am getting;
1000ds engine (under 5000 miles)
ECU (will need to be re-flashed)
Wiring loom
Head pipes
injectors
I am sure I will need the 1000ds dash at some point

What I have
900ssie engine with bad crank and rods (under 5000 miles) ce la vie
2001 SSie frame
everything there except engine
I think I might have to sleeve the engine for the swing arm bolt.
I will need help!!!
Thanks
david
 

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I can't speak with any amount of authority, but consider comparing parts diagrams and parts numbers for all of the hard points and electronics. Specifically: swingarm pivot components (should be a non-issue), frame/engine interface (engine mounting bolts, etc), wiring harness, fuel injection components, regulator/rectifier and coils/ignition.
 

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I'll be watching this. My 900SSie engine has just started lighting the oil light when hot and I have an engine made up from Multistrada guts in Copa Bosa cases under the work bench. Looks like I'll have to tailor an exhaust and then decide what ECU to use.
 

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if you have a 1000ssie, m1000, s2r1000, gt1000 or sc1000 engine, it will go straight into a 2001 frame and swingarm. you'll need inlet manifolds, dual plug coils or extra pair of coils (for 1 per plug) and exhaust headers. everything else should plug in and go, baby.

pretty much the same throttle bodies that have different injectors with similar flow rates. 900 has 1.5m ecu, so you'll need to make up a map file for the 1000 engine. probably make a fuel map that ends up being 10% or so richer at wot, tapering off to the lower throttle openings. spark map will need less adv due to the twin plugs too.
 

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What are "Copa Bosa" cases?
Later deep sump cases from an S4R if I remember right. I had to drill oil ways and relieve the crank cases so th crank could go all the way round! What I didn't think about was exhaust routing which stalled the project, especially as some mapping made the 900 run so sweet I didn't think it was worth the effort.
 

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if you have a 1000ssie, m1000, s2r1000, gt1000 or sc1000 engine, it will go straight into a 2001 frame and swingarm. you'll need inlet manifolds, dual plug coils or extra pair of coils (for 1 per plug) and exhaust headers. everything else should plug in and go, baby.

pretty much the same throttle bodies that have different injectors with similar flow rates. 900 has 1.5m ecu, so you'll need to make up a map file for the 1000 engine. probably make a fuel map that ends up being 10% or so richer at wot, tapering off to the lower throttle openings. spark map will need less adv due to the twin plugs too.
I'm still puzzling over the fueling side of things on my project. Plan A was to get a 1000DS map and cut'n'paste / extrapolate the values on to an M15 map. Plan B was to make a piggyback loom up from the Multistrada loom and use an M59 or M5 brain with a suitable DS1000 map. The later brains have a higher resolution but use a lambda sensor. Still undecided and probably won't go their until the engine and exhaust are in the frame.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well I measured the swing arm bolt and per bradblack it is the right one. Now just waiting for the parts to arrive. I will end up with the extra ECU for the 1000ds and the wiring loom. Hopefully the wiring loom will have the dual plug coils or an extra set of coils. We shall see. It does have the injectors and inlet manifolds.
thanks guys
david
 

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it is only the 2006/7 ish onwards models that are closed loop.

15m maps are 16x16 with 8 bit fuel map values, whereas the 59m/5am are 20x32 with 16 bit fuel values. plus the 15m values are factored, so the # don't make a lot of sense side by side. but you'd just bump up the 900 map #'s and make it as required.

it's as simple as hooking the stuff up and remapping the 900 ecu.
 

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it is only the 2006/7 ish onwards models that are closed loop.

15m maps are 16x16 with 8 bit fuel map values, whereas the 59m/5am are 20x32 with 16 bit fuel values. plus the 15m values are factored, so the # don't make a lot of sense side by side. but you'd just bump up the 900 map #'s and make it as required.

it's as simple as hooking the stuff up and remapping the 900 ecu.
Sounds the easiest way to go but I reckon I'll need to crib some values for ignition timing and maybe some offsets. As I'm already set up for mucking about with the M15 ECU It's probably the smartest rout. Another thing to note is the Injectors I have for the 1000 motor are higher flowing so I need to take that into account too. Thank you for making me think a little harder Brad.
 

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yes, you'll need to modify the spark map as it will want less advance with the dual plugs at wot. easy. look at the 1000ds map, put values into 900 map.

if your injectors are bigger you'll just need to factor it, it's just a % difference.

the 1000 will not need a blanket 10% ish more fuel compared to the 900. it will need less at low throttle openings ime (i usually start off with maybe 2 or 3% at low throttle), and depending on how much power it makes, possibly more at wot. the 1000 power will peak a bit lower too.

the 900 injectors will flow more than enough for the 1000 engine. the green iw031 are much the same flow rate as the brown band iwp043 and the iw724 (4v). the white band ones - iwp162 - are multi hole versions of the 043.
 

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yes, you'll need to modify the spark map as it will want less advance with the dual plugs at wot. easy. look at the 1000ds map, put values into 900 map.

if your injectors are bigger you'll just need to factor it, it's just a % difference.

the 1000 will not need a blanket 10% ish more fuel compared to the 900. it will need less at low throttle openings ime (i usually start off with maybe 2 or 3% at low throttle), and depending on how much power it makes, possibly more at wot. the 1000 power will peak a bit lower too.

the 900 injectors will flow more than enough for the 1000 engine. the green iw031 are much the same flow rate as the brown band iwp043 and the iw724 (4v). the white band ones - iwp162 - are multi hole versions of the 043.
Much appreciated, I've got the white injectors. The plan for this engine was to get back the bottom end grunt of the carbed engine without loosing any top end. Hope for a cooler running motor too. Just got to figure out the exhaust. My plan was to try and pick up a 1000SS one and work from there as I think this is probably the best one made for the 2v motor. Unless of course, you know different? :)
 

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the 1000 headers are different at the head end, so you have to use them. otherwise i'd expect them to be the same header from there back as such.

it should have a lot more grunt than a carbed engine. you can get that with a modified 900ie engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Well this project started because there was a knock in the engine which turned out to be the rods were loose. When I started this my daughter was trying to get clean. She said she was in a re-hab so I believed her. As I would take apart the engine and find things I would relate them to life's lessons. I ended up buying a 1000ds engine with about the same amount of miles on it.
In October I started to pu the new engine in the bike. My father got really sick and I went to Montana to help. On November 7th my mom fell and broke her hip. That is my sisters bday and that night I found out my daughter had died.
I had been wallowing around in a funk or depression until about March. My daughter would have been 28 in March. She was the second child we have lost in 2 years. I kicked myself in the arse and got going on the bike.
The 1000ds engine is in and the bike is pretty amazing. It has a lot more torque. I finished it due to friends letting me know that I had done all the work while trying to help my daughter. I have not mapped it but it is a very strong running bike. Maybe this winter I will map. Not it is time to ride and to try and live through the pain. I do have 5 grand daughters and a grand son to help keep me busy off and on. I also have 7 bikes that always need something.
If someone has a map for a 1000ds for the old 900ssie computer that might help. I would need lots of guidance to install but I have gotten through a lot tougher things in my life.
Sorry about the long thread but wanted to say thanks to all that have helped me get my life together by posting answers.
Thanks
david
 

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My sincerest condolences. Can't imagine loosing a child I've lost parents and friends but that isn't the same.
May you and your family rise up and survive!!!
On the bike I did the same thing with my 2000 900ie and put a 2001 1000ds motor in and she just rubs like a dream enjoy!
 

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That must be devastating, I feel for you.

Not being glib or putting that aside, I will try to provide some info on the 1000DS controlled by a 15M ECU which is the the question asked.

The 15M is mapped for a 900cc engine using the "green top" (IW031)Weber injectors which flow 270cc per minute.

The 1000DS uses IWP043 injectors that flow 329cc per minute.

Injectors are electromagnetic devices and quite sophisticated little things!
I won't go into details as they are not super important in the context of this response.
Being electromagnetic they take a finite time before they open (providing fuel), then carefully controlled when they close.

Presuming you have retained the original 329cc injectors it is lucky that they match the injector duration signal from the 15M ECU to suit the extra 100cc of the 1000cc engine.

If you go back to Brad Black's posts you will learn more.

Ignoring dead time as it may differ between the injectors for the 900 and the 1000 .......

The 1000 needs approximately 10% more fuel (injector duration) if using the Green Tops.
As the 1000 you have probably still has the 329cc injectors, then they are providing about 10% more fuel than required when using the 15M durations.
Not a bad thing as more fuel (rich) is better than less fuel (lean) as things might get really hot and burn out valves, pre-ignition etc.

Ignition timing, as Brad mentioned, should be modified.
I don't know how you have done it, nor how racer162 did it, if at all, but it should be modified.

Why?
Even though it is less than a blink of the eye, the flame from the ignited fuel takes time to propagate in the cylinder.
Not suggesting you do it, but you may have seen it with a fuel spill.
The fuel may be on the ground over say 20 feet. If you light one end you can see the flame propagate along the line of fuel.
The same thing happens inside the cylinder - it takes time to burn.
Ignition timing is set so that the flame starts before top dead centre (TDC) and maximum bang when required so the piston gets pushed down at the right time.
At low revs and hence low rate of rise of the piston the ignition (spark) time before TDC is closer to TDC as the flame propagates in the cylinder at roughly the same rate and hence can happen later.
At higher revs, the start of flame propagation needs to happen earlier as the piston is rising more rapidly.

That is all great for a single spark plug engine as the flame has to propagate from the single spark source from one side of the cylinder to the other.

In a dual spark head, there are (Duh) two spark sources so logically the flame starts from two different places and combusts earlier than a single spark engine.
Mmmm - because the spark/combustion happens sooner, then the ignition timing does not have to be as advanced as in a single spark engine.

I had a quick look on my other computer to see if I have an ignition map for a dual spark engine.

If I can find it/one I am happy to do a new 15M bin file with modified ignition timing to suit the dual spark 1000DS.

Writing/flashing a new bin file is very simple.
All you need is the free (you should feel obliged to donate) IAW Writer software and the cable of my choice from Lonelec.co.uk
Personally I would use IAW Reader to read the existing file in the ECU to save it to your computer for posterity.
Even if you do not, then I or some others can email it to you.

Fuel mapping - take heed of what Brad wrote about % changes.
Initially one would assume that the capacity is 10% higher, so just add 10% to everything in the 900 fuel map.
I doubt this would be correct, because as far as I know the fuel map values comprise a dead time plus lets say open time.
The dead time is a relatively fixed value, but the open time required depends upon rpm.
So adding say 10% to the 900cc map value is probably adding way too much fuel at low rpm as it is adding 10% to the dead time of the injector duration.

It is a few posts earlier, but I recall Brad posting something like 2% additional to a 15M map based on a 900cc fuel map and 270cc injectors and possibly up to 10% at high rpm. With the 1000DS injectors, probably reduce injector duration in the 15M fuel map but not 10% less overall.

Hope that makes some sense - now to open the beer fridge again as it is midnight here.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Punch,
I am using the 900 injectors and ECU with the 1000ds engine. The only electronic thing to bw switched during this conversion was the coils. This is an 01 900ssie. I do not know much about tuning and maps. I understand the idea but have never done it. I can take the engine apart and put it back together but when it comes to tuning that is where I am done. Now if I had really good instructions I could get through it. I was going to call the local Duc dealer 100 miles away and find out the cost of doing a map and if they could do is. I am also a Mac based person so would need to understand that part of it also.
thanks punch
David
 

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I have looked all over the place for the DS ignition map, even via Google and clicking on images.

The XDFs and bins I have are incorrect.

I have the Tuneboy file, but can't update my version of TuneEdit to get to the file as the latest version does not exist on their website for download.

Anyone have the DS ignition map? Just a screenshot of the table would do.
Also the fuel map would be handy, so I can play with the 900SSie bin file.

Loading a new map is quite simple. You need the Lonelec cable, which you could possibly borrow from someone.
You also need the IAW 15 Writer (Mac version) which is free, but you should donate.

EDIT - just read your post again and saw you are running the 900 (Green) injectors.
My gut feeling is that that could be lean, however if you are using the DP map, it can be rich, so might compensate.
What sort of engine temps are you seeing on the dash gauge, as in needle position?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
It is running right at about half on a 90* day through mountain roads. I have not even got out of 4th gear and reving up to around 7,000rpm at the highest. Mostly around 5-6 thousand.
 

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It is running right at about half on a 90* day through mountain roads. I have not even got out of 4th gear and reving up to around 7,000rpm at the highest. Mostly around 5-6 thousand.
My gut feeling is that you are running lean as i do not see halfway temps unless stuck in traffic or extensive riding at high revs at the track.

The ECU is injecting fuel expecting a 450cc cylinder (air volume) but you actually have circa 10% more air.

As I posted earlier (and in line with Brad's info), the injector duration has two components - dead time plus actual open time.

I can do a new bin file for you for the fuelling quite easily. I would just need to dig back through info I have somewhere on dead time.

I still have not had success on finding a DS ignition map and obviously that includes the request in this thread.
IMO that is very important.
 
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