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post #81 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 21st, 2019, 6:12 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surffly View Post
It is funny when it becomes "US vs THEM" in these debates.
Never more evident then the "cagers" comments.


If you want to debate legality, fine.
But at the end of the day if a motorcycle rider chooses to split lanes, they need to assume that their risk is going up.
Should people signal? Absolutely.
Should they look before changing lanes? Defiantly.
Can a driver signal, and look, but still miss a motorcycle in a fairly unexpected location? YOU BET!

Really wish more focused on preventing the fall, then trying to assign blame after an accident.
Except that the studies that have been done show that lanesplitting does NOT increase your risk; it reduces it overall, if you split in a reasonable manner. Watch what you are doing and where you are going and be careful. But do not "assume that (your) risk is going up", because it isn't. Again as others have noted, spreading misinformation is not helpful.

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post #82 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 23rd, 2019, 6:58 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Coil 7 View Post
So wait, be careful with what you are suggesting others should do. Are you suggesting to lie to the cops? I've read your post above on this several times to be sure I am taking you in proper context. You clearly said "tell the officer(s) that you were previously lane splitting but that you were not at the time of collision". Without further context, it seems you are suggesting being untruthful. Be careful with that. If witnesses saw you lane splitting when the collision occurred, and you tell the officer something other than that, you've opened up an entirely LARGER can of worms and a shitstorm of trouble can come down on your head.

100% agreed. But choose your words carefully, and whatever you do, do not lie to Johnny Law. You have no idea what witnesses may have said about your behavior while riding, as well as what other evidence the officer(s) may have (or will) collect .... so you're best off telling the truth as you know it. Especially if there are injuries involved, which will escalate the investigative methods used to a far higher degree, as well as a far greater amount of detail put into the collision report. Also know that there are investigative techniques that can either absolve you, or contradict your statement. Things such as melted plastic or glass on a turn signal filament (indicating it was in use at the instance of collision ... or indicating that it was not in use at time of collision). That's just one method (used solely to make my point), there are others depending on the situation, wit statements, and evidence on the road (skid marks, etc..).

I'll repeat, just be careful. Just because lane splitting in California is "legal" do not take that for granted. You may still be held accountable depending on the entirety of the situation. It comes down to using solid judgement.

.. seems I lost you, and possibly others. Here's my post with what I thought was the necessary context in BOLD, as written:
"Riders, do NOT admit fault if this happens to you while following all the CHP Lanesharing Guidelines/Cali lanesplitting Law. If knocked down, tell responding officer you HAD BEEN but weren't splitting at time of incident where cager suddenly veered and took your lane without yielding to your right of way in your lane without signaling..."

Think about it - they knocked you down because there was a gap in between cars that they perceived. therefore you were rolling IN ONE LANE when they hit you, NOT lane splitting between cars....."

I now see how you thought I was possibly suggesting lying. But when a car takes you down on the urban Cali highway, its 99% of the time due to swerving into your lane too fast for you to react. If you're actually riding between two cars, "lane-sharing," its uncanny how they seem to successfully avoid scratching their paint. An experienced Cali rider or lane splitter knows of what I speak..

let's try another tack:
SO.. you're riding along in a comfy gap of cars in the #1 Lane [the Left/fast lane in the US], slightly faster than cagers in #2 Lane to you right. This is after splitting a hundred feet back or so to get through a rolling grid. You are now in a large gap, 200' or so, riding in the safest place in your lane - the right-most portion of the lane since this position has the highest visibility for all concerned, while distancing your bad self from the cagers to your right. You are not sharing their lane. But your high-beam dances happily in the cars' mirrors well ahead. NOTE THAT THIS IS very close to THE SAME POSITION AS LANESPLITTING. Suddenly a cager in the #2 Lane quickly veers into you as you're coming past them in your lane. They do this without signaling, looking over their shoulder to check their blind spot, nor visibly moving their head about to peer into various mirrors like cager pilots do who are too lazy to turn around to check their blind spot as required. They just broke several laws - taking your legal right-of-way in your lane, and lane change w/o signal. I'd add reckless driving, maybe attempted manslaughter. maybe humor for those of literal leanings.

And if you ever ride Cali, I suggest you actually read the Cali Lane-Sharing CHP guidelines, which I reference in the post as the context sought after - your other questions/comments/concerns are addressed there. In simplest terms, legal lane "sharing" is done at up to 10 MPH faster than ambient flow, without speeding. You went off on a tangent. Sharing means you're in the same lane as a car. I wasn't when the cager knocked me off my bike.

Actionable takeaways for Cali riders in this situation:
You were not lane-sharing when this occurred. Said cager's insurance cannot successfully use this against you, tho they will try. CHP cannot report factually that you were lane sharing, as they weren't there and no evidence exists to the contrary. You should definitely ask the cager behind you to witness that they saw the person suddenly swerve into your lane and take you down without signal. You must, and have the right to, correct CHP's error in their report if they state you were lane sharing and you weren't at the time of the accident. Do this at the CHP office soon as the report is issued, usually a few days afterward. Cager's insurance will lay down and pay, or you should get lawyered up.

To the poster who said the focus should not be on assigning blame - if you are knocked off your bike, its critical to know your weapons at-hand to defend yourself from insurance adjusters so your extensive expenses for medical and property damage caused by others are covered.

An aside:
You quoted me as accusing you of spreading "disinformation" somewhere in this thread. I used the term "misinformation," meaning "wrong information," a very different word and inference as to intent. That's perhaps the term that got your knickers twisted. If so, apologies.. No malfeasance intended on my part there. However, if you choose to quote me, do so accurately. Seems this is a Current Events talking point
https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...=.4133fa201460
..its all about Intent.


Shiny side up, gents & gentle lady riders!

-bucky
2011 1198 - 2001 996 mono - 2002 ST4s ti - 2003 R1150RT

Last edited by bbradsby; Jun 23rd, 2019 at 7:08 pm.
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post #83 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 23rd, 2019, 8:42 pm
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Lots here. Let's break it down as these are really good points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Coil 7 View Post
..even though lane splitting is legal in the State of California, all motor vehicle operators traveling on public roadways/highways (including us bikers) are still bound by C.V.C. (California Vehicle Code) 22350 .... aka "Basic Speed". That vehicle code states that no matter what the posted speed limit is, if you're traveling faster than that what is considered "safe", and you lane split, you can be held in violation of CVC-22350. This can (or may) also apply to collisions between a car and a motorcycle while the motorcyclist is splitting lanes.

So, if traffic is moving at (let's say) 5mph, and a biker is splitting lanes at (let's say) 30mph, and there is a collision between the bike and a car, the biker "may" be held in violation of CVC-22350 (speed to fast for conditions). Note the language "may" which means Johnny Law is given an option to charge/ticket ... if it said "shall" the officer has no option of discretion and by law must charge.
CHP Lane Sharing Guidelines and the unwritten rules of the road as meted out by CHP officers prior to the law and after [!?] , were that lane splitting is OK if up to 10mph faster than ambient traffic flow, and NOT exceeding the speed limit, subject to some common sense and not riding like a jackass. It was a Rider's Understanding between the CHP motor cops and their fellow riders. Us. It worked pretty well.

And Darwin's Law also regulated lane splitting before the law was passed. Like, if the speed limit is 70, and cars are doing 60 in a moonless night in a horizontal toad-floater of a rain with zero visibility, and a biker thinks he can split at 10 MPH over ambient traffic flow, well, he's just a braver man than I. ..to split or not to split, that is the question.

The Law itself is left vague on purpose, to keep that Rider's Agreement in place. Even the CHP Lanesharing Guidelines have been rescinded and removed from their website. Nice. Us riders are left to hammer out what constitutes reasonable riding with our fellow riders of the CHP.

-bucky
2011 1198 - 2001 996 mono - 2002 ST4s ti - 2003 R1150RT

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post #84 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 24th, 2019, 10:31 am
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Originally Posted by PhilBoncer View Post
Except that the studies that have been done show that lanesplitting does NOT increase your risk; it reduces it overall, if you split in a reasonable manner. Watch what you are doing and where you are going and be careful. But do not "assume that (your) risk is going up", because it isn't. Again as others have noted, spreading misinformation is not helpful.

PhilB
"reasonable manner"
"be careful"
ect ect ect

Sounds like if you do it "wrong" then your risk does in fact go up.
So in the states where lanesplitting is legal......what does their training look like?

Nothing is black and white.
But at the end of the day a motorcycle rider NEEDS to understand that splitting lanes is not something most car drivers are used to watching out for.
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post #85 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 24th, 2019, 12:06 pm
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I've only lane split when there was bumper to bumper traffic... and I was always nervous about riding on the line when there was a gap on one side or the other, some drivers will swerve into the tiniest gap if they think the other lane is moving 1mph faster, and those are NOT the kind of drivers who look for motorcycles.

The only time in Cali where I had someone swerve into me it was some moron in a pickup truck who merged onto PCH and immediately swerved across 3 lanes into the left lane (which I was in... not splitting). The issue with splitting is that you have even less time to react to these oblivious cagers.

I guess I didn't do it enough to get comfortable with it (not sure if I'd EVER have gotten comfortable with it)... but I definitely did it because sitting in traffic on a Ducati is a recipe for cooked rider.

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post #86 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 24th, 2019, 10:19 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surffly View Post
"reasonable manner"
"be careful"
ect ect ect

Sounds like if you do it "wrong" then your risk does in fact go up.
So in the states where lanesplitting is legal......what does their training look like?

Nothing is black and white.
But at the end of the day a motorcycle rider NEEDS to understand that splitting lanes is not something most car drivers are used to watching out for.
EVERYTHING is very dangerous if you do it stupidly. So yes, if you try to split lanes at 150mph when traffic is going 25, your risk goes up. Sheesh.

The POINT is that if you do it in a reasonable manner, with the same care with which an intelligent rider rides anyway, your risk does not go up; instead it goes down. Lanesplitting safely is not very hard, and does not require any extraordinary care beyond normal attention and prudence. The longtime unofficial CHP guidelines were not more than 15mph speed differential, and traffic at not more than 40mph. The official-ish current guidelines are more conservative -- 10mph differential at maximum 30mph ambient traffic seed. This will of course vary somewhat based on traffic density, lane width, road conditions, weather, etc., just like all aspects of motorcycling. With a little practice, these are reasonable and safe guidelines.

In the state where lanesplitting has been legal for a long time, there is exactly zero training or special instruction. I don't believe the states where it has recently become legal have any training or instruction for it set up at this time either.

PhilB

1993 Ducati Monster M900, bought new, 265K miles, killed by minivan 30Oct17. 1995 M900, was ex-wife's bike, now mine again.
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post #87 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 25th, 2019, 10:26 am
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Im not a fan of anything "unofficial" when it comes to LEO.
Gray area is where the common people get screwed.

The lack of training for LEO as well as drivers/riders will always cause issues as well.
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post #88 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 25th, 2019, 12:41 pm
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Matter of fact I split lanes this morning on the way to work - the last half mile of 4 lane leads to a major intersection under construction so the workers merged it all down to one lane ending in a long traffic light. My work entrance is about 200 feet short of the intersection.

It would have taken 15 or more minutes to wait through those lines in 100F heat, so up the middle of stopped cars I went at five miles per hour and into my work parking lot. Easily passed 150 cars, minimum.

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post #89 of 89 (permalink) Old Jun 25th, 2019, 2:03 pm
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This is a light traffic day on Chicago's Kennedy Expressway. Bumper to bumper traffic as far as you can see in both directions. If you live on the Northside near the Lake like I do it's the only way out of town to the South unless you go far out across town to the West to get on the nearly equally crowded Toll Road or go to the East along Lake Shore Drive. At least LSD is "pretty" while you are stopped looking at a Prius bumper. The Kennedy is a 1-2 hour commute depending on the time of day for me to get 10 miles South of the Loop from my abode. Lane sharing is illegal here but at least our new billionaire governor signed the legal recreational pot bill today so we got that going for us... Maybe if we could convince him that it would bring in some revenue J.B. would push through lane sharing.
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