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New unofficial Ignitech Manual

59K views 175 replies 33 participants last post by  motolectric 
#1 ·
I have been doing a lot of testing and playing with the Ignitech TCIP4 units recently.

The units are much better and much more flexible than I had previously realized...I am a big fan!

As a result of this and my ongoing discussions and Q&A with Jan and Jiri at Ignitech I got them to send me an editable version of their manual and I have:

  1. Improved the English...a little
  2. Added some basic info on how ignition systems work and the theory of optimizing ignition timing
  3. Added some detail on how the unit works
  4. Added more detail on the documented features
  5. Documented some of the previously undocumented features, some of which have been added with the latest firmware release for the version 80 units
  6. Added a few tips and cleared up a few mysteries.

If anyone wants a free copy of this they can just email me, and I will send them a copy, all I ask is that you respect my copyright on the new original material I have added.

Liam@FastBikeGear.co.nz
 
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#48 ·
Thanks for the heads up Liam. Damn - and I had one of their systems in my wish-list too. Oh well - no money anyway. :(
 
#54 · (Edited)
Kevin I have been meaning to update on my post above for a few days. Yes it turns out Ignitech are still in business.

I was waiting to update on this until I had also had a chance to do some more testing so that I could also update on the technical issue as well.

This issue started when we sent back a faulty unit that a customer had returned to us. I tested the unit here by swapping out the unit with a perfectly working Ignitech fitted to one of my bikes and confirmed that we experienced exactly the same issues. We sent the unit back to Ignitech in June of this year (only the second ever unit we have sent back to Ignitech for testing.)

Finally when I followed up again in August, I got an email to advise they were sending an exchange unit, which we recieved on the 25th of August. We experienced very similar fault symptoms with the exchange unit.

Since then despite multiple emails to them we were not able to get ANY response from Ignitech.

Also during this period we had no response to queries on an injection unit for a Land Speed Record Bike, and another extreme race bike and also some orders we had been following up on. Not getting responses to technical queries or orders is nothing new as we have experienced breaks in communication before with Ignitech.....but never for this long.

On the 30th of September I sent an exact copy of what I posted in this forum above to Jan at Ignitech. Surprisingly the very next day (on the 1st of October) after absolutely no response on the fault issue since receiving the exchange unit back in August (despite multiple emails). I got a response from Ignitech which was basically to say they didn't know what the issue was but to suggest the usual suspect, interference. In the same email they also responded to some of our previous unanswered queires including asking if we still wanted the outstanding units on order and answering some technical queries we had on using hall effect triggers on the Land Speed Record bike.)

We had previously sent them a copy of the configuration file we were working with to test (and of course the unit we returned had the same file on it and they have advised that it tested OK on the unit we originally sent back to them.)

On the 3rd of October I sent them a recap of the fault issue (including all my previous emails detailing our testing of the unit) and asked them to get one of their engineers to send me a fresh configuration file for the exchange unit.

We have examined the file the new file they sent me with the Ignitech configuration software and it looks essentially the same as the file we sent them....but I then examined the raw .ign file with an editor and noticed a couple of interesting changes. (You can view a couple more options and setting with an editor than the Ignitech configuration software...however we recommend you only use the configurator to make changes)

I have a theory
On earlier units there was a special setting 'Interlock Input' that allowed you to reduce the chances of interference. On the earlier units/configuration software you can access this feature under 'special settings' with the configuration software and Ignitech used to recommend that we turn this feature on.

This feature is not accessible through the new V.88 configuration software and I have a suspicion that this feature has been removed because it may have been causing the issues we are experienceing. In the latest .ign file they have sent me this feaure is not enabled. I have a suspicion that the setting of this feature may possibley have been what is causing the issues we are experiencing with this unit. I will be testing this later today.

Update
Got a chance to test my theory today. Installed the configuration file that Jan form Ignitech provided us with (that disables the Interlock Input feature) and unfortunately the unit still cuts out momentarily every couple of seconds or less. The problem is unlikely to be interference because when we plug another unit (albeit an earlier V.80 unit) into the same Ignitech wiring loom on the same bike it runs perfectly. So back to Ignitech to see what they recommend as the next step.

As soon as I plug another Ignitech unit into the same Igneitech plug and wiring loom on this bike it runs perfectly. To me it's still looking like a faulty hardware problem.

Be interesting to see what response I get from Ignitech.


When we get to the bottom of this issue I will post back here and also update our unoffical Ignitech Manual.
 
#56 ·
.

When we get to the bottom of this issue I will post back here and also update our unoffical Ignitech Manual.
OK finally got to the bottom of this with the use of a lab scope that I purchased just to look into this problem. (One of the best investments I have made.) It turned out the newer Ignitech V88 units are able to get more voltage out of the ignition coil. I suspect this is due to an improved output stage.

When we plugged in the old V80 unit the bike ran well, but as soon as we plugged in the newer V88 unit the output voltage from the coils increased to the point where it could short through the spark plug leads and the bike would immediately begin missing badly under load.

I have updated our Ignitech manual with info on this and also added new sections on:

  1. Spark plug lead types and recommendations
  2. detailed information on ignition coils and dwell tuning.
  3. A discussion on Single Tower Vs twin tower output coils. (Popular on BMWs and Ducati Dual Spark engines)

Manual has grown to 30 pages, but it is all good info.

If you have an earlier copy of the manual and would like a free upgrade to the latest version please just email me.
 
#55 ·
Question for you guys. Had my bike with an Ignitech unit on the Dyno the other day. Setting the tack pick-up to 720° on the dyno would register 2x the RPM on the Dyno, meaning at 2k on the bike was reading 4k on the dyno. I am assuming wasted spark. However at about 4-5k on the bike the RPMs seem to go back to 720° as if the wasted spark turns itself off and the Dyno reads correctly

Any idea what is going on here?
 
#58 ·
Hey Liam, I've been following your latest dual spark investigations with HUGE interest.
2015 will be the year of gathering parts for me with the goal of a new bored, balanced, valved and ported motor for 2016.
One of the things on the list is to convert the '94 to dual spark heads, the research you're doing will likely be of great use to me, especially if you're able to eliminate the wasted spark! - and maybe use the four ignition outputs from an Ignitech in some way to control four separate coils? I don't know if that part is even possible, but it's a thought.

Thanks for all the effort you are putting into this.
 
#59 · (Edited)
Yes we can eliminate the wasted spark and yes you can do a four coil set up as well. My four coil setup on my bike is working brilliantly.

I am running a four coil setup on my bike and I can tell you it is a huge improvement over the previous two coils setup that I was using before.

I was working on one of Glyn Robinson's (google Glyn Robinson + Steve Wynn) bikes today at the track, upgrading the ignition system. His rider, a very talented guy call Chris Swallows, got 3rd place today on a 600 against a field of very fast bikes including a pretty special Ducati 851, which won). Glynn obviously knows how to build fast very Ducatis!

This bike runs a camshaft mounted trigger system which means that it has no wasted spark. Glyn made the mounting system.

Glyn is going to offer this as a complete kit for the TT bikes, complete with our Ultrabatt lithium batteries (with built in BMS), Ignitech units and pick-ups, plus Glyn's beautiful and very clever camshaft mounting system...and we might also offer it as a kit for the 900 bikes as well.
 

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#62 ·
No. I just made mine for my own use. It is not going to be a production unit. I haven't ever dealt with Cosentino engineering so I don't have any contacts for them. I think they developed their system independently from mine, I think their design was both different and probably better than mine.

The Frankencati is pretty much complete now.....But I have one last project I want to do before I move on which is to build and test a cam wheel driven hall effect ignition pick-up system to see if their is any further advantage to getting rid of the wasted spark with my existing ignition setup and also to see if I get even more accurate timing with the hall effect pick-ups.

Parts arrived for this project today and new project bike arrives later this week!
 
#64 ·
Picking up the ignition signal from the cam drive is what is blamed for the 3400rpm hiccup on SSie and 748/916s. Apparently a resonance issue. I had the driven gear off a couple of months ago and it rang like a bell when I tapped it. Everybody in the workshop was fasinated! I might get round to glueing rubber pads into the two holes to act as dampers - we'll see.
 
#66 ·
We are picking up off the cam wheel with our Hall effect system not the cam gear. We are primarily doing this because it's easier to retrofit a rotor to the cam wheel on the earlier bikes than convert them to the later Fuel Injected cam gear hall effect triggers.

Not sure how sound resonance could effect magnetic fields? Hall effect sensors are triggered by disturbance to a magnetic field.

I have set up an Ignitech on a later model 750 fuel injected engine that was converted to carburettors and I have heard no reports from the race team that there was any issue with a hiccup at 3400 RPM or there abouts.

One such bike I recently worked on has absolutely no flywheel (it's been totally removed) and it has no hiccup that I know of at 3400rpm. It has other issues at the moment (at much higher revs after a few laps) but I am guessing it's a fuel starvation problem on this particular race bike.

The pickup used on the fuel injected bikes is not my favourite setup for Ignitechs. The pickup used requires a special version of the Ignitech's to work. And I don't think triggering of gear teeth is the best way to do things. A comment made by one of the Ignitech staff recently seemed to suggest they found this pickup finicky to set up the Ignitech's input circuitry for, but given the language barrier I may have misinterpreted his comment. It may also be that the physical positioning of this sensor relative to the cam gear teeth is finicky but I haven't tried playing with shims to move it's position.
 
#67 ·
The explaination I have for the hiccup is that there is an alogrythm in the ECU software that decides if the engine is accelerating or decceleration. If there is too much wear in the 1/2 time shaft then there can be a resonance at 3400rpm that confuses the ECU.

Sound is caused by vibration. Have a look on Youtube for something that shows a bell struck and illuminated by a strobe at about the frequency the bell is ringing. You might be surprised by the flex in the bell. I propose that vibration in the gear at 3400rpm is a harmonic of the gear's resonant frequency.

The fueling and ignition can be adjusted to almost remove the hiccup and a MOSFET regulator almost removes it completely.
 
#68 · (Edited)
If the problem you encountered is caused by a mechanical resonance causing an issue with a pickup, then I don't see how adjusting the fuelling or a change to a MOSFET regulator would fix an erratic pickup signal caused by this mechanical resonance? If a MOSFET regulator fixes the problem then surely the problem isn't likely to be a mechanical resonance one?

Yes it's plausible (but not likely) that a mechanical resonance could cause issues with the pickup, but the cure would not be to adjust fuelling or change the regulator.

There are lots of other electrical and magnetic factors such as hystereisis or even resonance in the electrical circuit (that you definitely wouldn't hear) that are more likely to cause issues. I would think you would need a scope with a good bandwidth and sampling rate to observe and analyse these issues.

As they say 'you never know what you don't know' so maybe I am missing something in your explanation.
 
#69 · (Edited)
I went through that reasoning myself. Then I got a bit deeper.

The fueling/ignition adjustments made my bikes run a bit smoother so that might help reduce any resonance. As for the MOSFET regulator. This made the bikes A LOT more pleasant - especially the SS. My suspicion is that the original regulator was not intended for bikes with fuel injection and so probably doesn't have a very smooth voltage. The MOSFET regulator was meant for a Yamaha R1 which has fuel injection and so should have a smoother voltage more suited to giving the sensors a clean supply. I would expect this to help the ECU make up its mind which way the acceleration is going with more accuracy. I should probably have rigged up the sillyscope and had a look at what really was happening :eek: Curiosity might get the better of me again here.
 
#71 ·
I went through that reasoning myself. Then I got a bit deeper....
Thank you.

I always use the Shindingen FH020 regulators as replacements because they run cooler and I can relocate them out of the weather in places like the battery box (where I currently have mine). And yes they have a relatively stable output which I think helps the ECUs behave nicely. I also have a Stonk MegaBooster in my bike which stabilises the voltage very nicely!!

The Hall effect devices we are using in our system will operate from a very wide range of voltage supply and also have an inbuilt voltage regulator. (belts and braces!).
 
#74 ·
Nope not operational yet. I need to wire the sensors in to the Ignitech. Going to be busy over the next few days with a couple of customers bikes and will get back to it next week.

Testing should only take one good bike ride and a bit of time with the scope. My current ignition system is fairly upgraded (four very fast rise time coils), Ignitech, FBG UltraRace leads and twin plug conversion. This setup on my bike is to test the system before putting it on a couple of customers race bikes.
 
#76 ·
You have a ballpark idea of your selling price for the kit?
No not yet. For this first version one of my customers has 3D printed the cover and the hall effect mounts which clip into the back of it. For future versions I will need to use a 3D printing service so I don't know what the costs will be for that. The materials used including the hall effect units are pretty cheap.

I have had Ignitech build a special version of the Ignitech optimised for our Hall effect sensors and it looks like the cost of these will be very similar to the standard Ignitechs. (I have also built and bench tested a small external interface circuit for customers who already have standard Ignitechs)

In this first version I have machined the rotor and rotor clamp but we can either machine or print these two parts as well and I need to compare the cost of both options.
 
#78 ·
I don't expect any backlash induced flutter under drive. On throttling off it is possible but it would be fairly small (in degrees of crank shaft rotation) and not so much of interest in throttle off conditions.

One of the reasons for trying this is the erratic timing uncertainty (flutter) inherent in Hall effect devices... and my scepticism of the accuracy (probably unfounded) of the Ducati hall effect set up in later bikes where they use a hall effect device to count teeth on the cam drive gear.

....but then this is the purpose of prototype testing to find out what I don't know what I don't know. The Donald Rumsfield engineering dictum.
 
#79 · (Edited)
Mounted Hall Effect cam wheel driven pick up system on the bike today and took it I for a good test ride today.

Ignitech have made me a special version of the Ignitech units to work with this system. But I have also made up an interface circuit so that I can use this system with the standard Ignitech units.

Bike has been running very well lately (since I upgraded to running a coil per plug on my twin plug heads) so I wasn't really expecting much.

When I first started it up from dead cold it seemed perhaps if anything to not start as briskly as usual (but pretty hard to say and the bike has been sitting for a couple of weeks) and it appeared to idle as per normal.

When I put the timing light on it the idle timing was as rock stable as normal. But when I revved it in the garage it seemed smoother than normal. But I thought maybe that was just confirmation bias.

Out on the road....WOW.....The bike has always been smooth but this was at whole new level. At 3800 rpm in top gear I have been able to detect a very slight engine roughness...not now it is silk smooth everywhere. Smoother than my Panigale 899.

OK so roll on the throttle at anywhere from 3000 to 4500 rpm (and remember I have been riding a Panigale for the last few weeks). Holly shit! It just instantly goes...and I mean really goes. So I just ride along enjoying this and then think I will change up to 6th gear only to discover I have been riding along in 6th gear all along.

OK so get a clear piece of road drop it back to 3rd gear and wind on the throttle 4000 going well, 5000 rpm excellent 6000 rpm (great) and then it just starts going really HARD all the way to 8000 rpm. It has always been better to short shift at around 6500 rpm in the past because not a whole more advantage in revving it....not now. The trip from 6000 rpm is definitely worth it. Remember this bike still runs standard cams.

So summary:

Performance from 5000 to 6000 rpm which has always been it's sweet spot is slightly better than before.

Performance from 3000 to 5000 rpm is in a whole different league to what it was before.

Performance from 6000 rpm to 8000 rpm is now intoxicating....and a good way to kiss goodbye to my license.

So now from 3000 rpm to 8000 rpm is fantastic. It feels brutally fast from 3000 rpm to 6500 rpm compared to my Panigale 899 (at about 6500 rpm the Panigale is just beginning to come on song and from 8000 rpm onwards the Panigale will destroy it as is to be expected, but it makes the Panigale feel positively feeble in the lower revs where I ride on the road.

Smoothness is just unbelievable, it's smoother than the Panigale from 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm.

Can you tell I am happy?

My engine project is now finished. I want nothing more from this now......A stiffer frame around the steering head and stiffer triple clamps....now that would be nice.

Some lighter fairings ...well yes maybe.

I have started a new thread on the cam wheel non wasted spark ignition project here: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supe...driven-non-wasted-spark-ignition-project.html
 
#81 · (Edited)
The latest version of the manual is the culmination several years work.

We have just added more diagrams to our manual and more importantly detailed advice on which spark plug leads and coils have proven to give the best results (We have done a huge amount of on road testing and testing on a variety of different makes and models of bikes with an ignition scope to determine which combinations deliver the best performance.)

Getting the HT side of your ignition circuit perfectly tuned to match the Ignitech is worth very noticeable power gains,

The current version of the manual is version 19.

If you purchased an earlier version, just email me and I will send you the latest version for free.

If you would like to buy a copy it costs just $10

I hope everyone understands this is not a get rich quick proposition but a way I can encourage myself to continue the service.

You can read some customer reviews on our manual here and in many of the forums.

The manual can be ordered from our web site here.

The manual will be emailed to you as a PDF.

The next version of the manual will include details on how to setup a quickshifter which is the current project on our Frankencati.

Many thanks

Liam Venter
Liam@FastBikeGear.co.nz

FastBikeGear, Importers and Distributors of Motorcycle Accessories
 
#83 ·
I will be emailing shortly for the new version, not many, if any other manuals can you get the latest updated version for free.

Spend the 10 bucks and support a fountain of useful information.

Three thumbs up!
 
#85 ·
I'd also like to endorse the work by Liam and Co. The updates they've done to the manual and the additional info they provide is invaluable, let alone worth a paltry $10. If you've got or are getting an Ignitech, do yourself a favour...

Regards

Muddy
 
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